Just thought I'd way in on the Adam & Eve story. God does say they would die if they ate the apple, and they did die. Just because they died hundreds of years later (according to the Bible) doesn't mean they didn't die. As is common with a literal interpretation of that account, Adam and Eve brought death into the world with the eating of the apple. Thus, before they ate the apple, Adam and Eve (and all living things) were immortal. By eating the apple, they lost their immortality, condemning themselves to death.

That's how I've understood it without the need for "spiritual death". God doesn't say anything about spiritual death, this is true, but he also doesn't say they would die immediately upon eating the apple.

Adrian,

That would be a reasonable explanation if it wasn't for the "Tree of Life" line I pointed out in my last post.

fr0d0 answer my question.

(May 10, 2010 at 5:38 pm)Shinylight Wrote:

(May 10, 2010 at 5:20 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Because the definition doesn't allow for it.

What is your definition of God?

Cut it down from the full thing please

Sorry Shiney I forgot

Mine is the standard vanilla Christian definition of God. The basics :

God is one. (Deut. 6:4, Romans 3:30, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19)
God is holy. (Psalm 99:9)
God is spirit. (John 4:24)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

These are stated equivically/ definite descriptions of God '='. You can be sure that the bible is making specific statements here.

Thank you.

(May 11, 2010 at 9:10 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: Fr0d0, you'd have a point about physical dying being introduced if God didn't kick them out so they wouldn't have access to the "Tree of Life" making them immortal. So to claim that it makes it so they can physically die is bullshit.

Well I think that's a very weak argument. It's literalist and that falls apart under the scrutiny of what it invokes... science. The whole thrust of the bible is spiritual life. It's treasured above physical life. Death spiritually involves eternity... God's realm. Physical death is insignificant.

The Tree of Life is what they were subsequently denied access to. They weren't denied access to this tree at all inside the garden - they had full access. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a different tree, that's the one they were denied access to, but chose to anyway - once tasted, never forgotten it seems.

(May 11, 2010 at 9:10 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: You want to use your own interpretation so the story jives with your version of Christianity, be my guest. My point is about the lying, not what you get out of the story. You think it's a story about the human condition, I think it's a story about God not wanting humans to be just like him.

My interpretation is strictly Christian. You can pick me up on that if I fail. I'm not perfect.

God cannot lie. If you think that holds, then I'd like to see you back that up. Any respected theological explanation will do. Obviously I'd have great respect for clearly demonstrable, solid logic that disproves the combined logic of all of the Abrahamic faiths.

(May 11, 2010 at 9:10 am)Eilonnwy Wrote: You're arguing that a the interpretation of the story is logical. Last I checked, interpretations are more matters of opinions. Different people can have different interpretations of a story. I am not arguing against logic, but simply your interpretation.

Never. Interpretations are tested and verified. the interpretations we're talking about are very old, and have been thoroughly tested thousands of times. Toppling the logic of these interpretations would be extremely rare.

(May 11, 2010 at 2:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God cannot lie. If you think that holds, then I'd like to see you back that up. Any respected theological explanation will do. Obviously I'd have great respect for clearly demonstrable, solid logic that disproves the combined logic of all of the Abrahamic faiths.

How does 'god cannot lie' square with god being omnipotent? Surely any all-powerful being would be able to lie? Don't you really mean 'god doesn't lie'?

No... god cannot lie. Invoking impossible puzzles is just for fun

(May 11, 2010 at 3:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No... god cannot lie. Invoking impossible puzzles is just for fun

Oh...so you don't believe that god is omnipotent then.

Just out of interest, is there any particular reason for your thinking that god can't lie?

Quote:I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree after both people can see the other side of whatever point.

And, if they can't see your point, tack?