(July 1, 2014 at 5:28 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:25 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yes one of our professors told us the USA has a constitution per federation and the federal state has the main constitution, the later being supreme

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Tell that to our government, abortion was brought on referendum, and gay adoption WAS about to be brought too but the constitutional court decided it was against the constitution to ask the people if a certain class should have fundamental rights.

Quote:I don't see anywhere in this conversation that suggests the majority's rights would be harmed. All this is about is women having the right to control their own bodies
No idea why you brought up a 'tyranny of the minority'

I'm not contesting the right of women to abort. The only thing I contested in this discussion were not the legality, only the ethics of abortion AND public expenses payed by taxes.

Everyone has their own opionions on the ethics of just about everything.

In the case of abortion it's a personal decision of the woman and, therefore, not up for anyone else to make that decision for her.

AS for public expense, those publicly funded clinics that perform abortions don't do so with public funds, but from donations from private causes and individuals. They are required to keep separate books for the abortion services to ensure no public funds are used.

(July 1, 2014 at 4:16 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Blackout my point in response to you saying that abortion is ethically an inner debate was that the only people worrying about that "ethical inner debate" should be pregnant women. It's not anyone else's business.

I have another question for you a bit unrelated but here it goes - As a woman, do you think that, abortion being completely legal and regulated, minors, such as 14-17 year old teenager females should be able to abort without consent? I'm not sure about this either, since minors need a parent's consent because they are incapable of making the best decisions for their own good.

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(July 1, 2014 at 5:37 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:28 pm)blackout94 Wrote: I'm not contesting the right of women to abort. The only thing I contested in this discussion were not the legality, only the ethics of abortion AND public expenses payed by taxes.

Everyone has their own opionions on the ethics of just about everything.

In the case of abortion it's a personal decision of the woman and, therefore, not up for anyone else to make that decision for her.

AS for public expense, those publicly funded clinics that perform abortions don't do so with public funds, but from donations from private causes and individuals. They are required to keep separate books for the abortion services to ensure no public funds are used.

I discovered a 3 day period of reflection is mandatory for all women, accompanied by a psychologist to help them make the decision. I support this. I also discovered the law in portugal doesn't work so well because most doctors refuse to practice abortions, hence why there are specialized clinics to realize such procedures. I agree with the right of choice, I'm happy because I know my girlfriend wouldn't abort our baby, but also unhappy because she wouldn't abort an handicapped baby. Am I being an inhumane person?

(July 1, 2014 at 5:05 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 4:52 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If I remember correctly, blackout, there was a huge effort at the time by the "pro-lifers" to make people vote for the NO option. That's why it was such a close call.
I always felt amazed how you can have half the population (the males) plus another half of the remaining population (women too old to bear children) voting on a subject which doesn't concern them.
The mind boggling nature of a referendum in a democracy!

I think both sides make a huge effort, in my opinion the pro choice campaign were a lot tougher and decisive since they were the ones fighting for legalization, at least from what I can recall. In Spain it was made illegal again by the new prime minister

Remember the part where I'm married to a catholic girl?
I saw how it worked from the other side.... and the typical pictures were circulating in pamphlets against abortion... The ones where you see fetuses being cut to pieces while still inside the woman's belly... something that is only done by the 20th week of gestation... not the 10th, which is what was proposed, back then.
Lies and false information was given to the pro-lifers... The game is always the same, ever since the first religion...

Here, blackout, enjoy: http://portugalprovida.blogspot.pt/

(July 1, 2014 at 5:34 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:33 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Good decision.

Imagine being a black person in the southern part of the U.S. without such protections.

A curiosity, is abortion in the USA mostly legal or illegal? - Abortion per se by the simple requirement of the biological mother, not by any exceptional reason. Yes the decision was great.

It's legal in all 50 states. Yet, despite it being a Constitutional right, we still have conservatives attempting to undermine it by every means at their disposal (for example, in Texas, it's legal as it must be, but that hasn't stopped the state from attempting to shut down most of the clinics by putting onerous requirements on them).

(July 1, 2014 at 5:50 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:34 pm)blackout94 Wrote: A curiosity, is abortion in the USA mostly legal or illegal? - Abortion per se by the simple requirement of the biological mother, not by any exceptional reason. Yes the decision was great.

It's legal in all 50 states. Yet, despite it being a Constitutional right, we still have conservatives attempting to undermine it by every means at their disposal (for example, in Texas, it's legal as it must be, but that hasn't stopped the state from attempting to shut down most of the clinics by putting onerous requirements on them).

As a law student, I don't consider abortion a right per se, but a requirement to complement the Right to Family Planning. In other words, family rights is a principle and the right to abort is a sub-principle. I had an idea it was illegal in some states. Is it really legal just because the woman wants? In any circumstances? Religious nuts will continue to exist for a while

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(July 1, 2014 at 5:48 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:05 pm)blackout94 Wrote: I think both sides make a huge effort, in my opinion the pro choice campaign were a lot tougher and decisive since they were the ones fighting for legalization, at least from what I can recall. In Spain it was made illegal again by the new prime minister

Remember the part where I'm married to a catholic girl?
I saw how it worked from the other side.... and the typical pictures were circulating in pamphlets against abortion... The ones where you see fetuses being cut to pieces while still inside the woman's belly... something that is only done by the 20th week of gestation... not the 10th, which is what was proposed, back then.
Lies and false information was given to the pro-lifers... The game is always the same, ever since the first religion...

Here, blackout, enjoy: http://portugalprovida.blogspot.pt/

I don't remember such pictures, I was a kid back then, heck I wasn't even in high school, I really can't say anything about it, but I recall (I'm assuming you are portuguese too) PCP and BE (no offense but I despise both parties equally, they have no utility) being very vocal about legalizing abortion as a supreme woman right. Is your marriage good even though you think differently? My girlfriend is also a christian.

(July 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 4:16 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Blackout my point in response to you saying that abortion is ethically an inner debate was that the only people worrying about that "ethical inner debate" should be pregnant women. It's not anyone else's business.

I have another question for you a bit unrelated but here it goes - As a woman, do you think that, abortion being completely legal and regulated, minors, such as 14-17 year old teenager females should be able to abort without consent? I'm not sure about this either, since minors need a parent's consent because they are incapable of making the best decisions for their own good.

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(July 1, 2014 at 5:37 pm)Beccs Wrote: Everyone has their own opionions on the ethics of just about everything.

In the case of abortion it's a personal decision of the woman and, therefore, not up for anyone else to make that decision for her.

AS for public expense, those publicly funded clinics that perform abortions don't do so with public funds, but from donations from private causes and individuals. They are required to keep separate books for the abortion services to ensure no public funds are used.

I discovered a 3 day period of reflection is mandatory for all women, accompanied by a psychologist to help them make the decision. I support this. I also discovered the law in portugal doesn't work so well because most doctors refuse to practice abortions, hence why there are specialized clinics to realize such procedures. I agree with the right of choice, I'm happy because I know my girlfriend wouldn't abort our baby, but also unhappy because she wouldn't abort an handicapped baby. Am I being an inhumane person?

A psych test is ridiculous unless the woman definitely shows emotional distress. Requiring such to be mandatory is ridiculous and just another way to force the woman to change her mind. Usually they've been through all the arguments in their own minds before they made the decision.

Doctors, as far as I'm concerned, should put their patients' needs before that of their own religious preferences. Should I be allowed to refuse to treat someone because I don't like their politics, their criminal records (if they have one), or their ethnicity?

Once that door is open it's very hard to close. There's a reason we take a hippocratic oath.

(July 1, 2014 at 5:58 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:38 pm)blackout94 Wrote: I have another question for you a bit unrelated but here it goes - As a woman, do you think that, abortion being completely legal and regulated, minors, such as 14-17 year old teenager females should be able to abort without consent? I'm not sure about this either, since minors need a parent's consent because they are incapable of making the best decisions for their own good.

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I discovered a 3 day period of reflection is mandatory for all women, accompanied by a psychologist to help them make the decision. I support this. I also discovered the law in portugal doesn't work so well because most doctors refuse to practice abortions, hence why there are specialized clinics to realize such procedures. I agree with the right of choice, I'm happy because I know my girlfriend wouldn't abort our baby, but also unhappy because she wouldn't abort an handicapped baby. Am I being an inhumane person?

A psych test is ridiculous unless the woman definitely shows emotional distress. Requiring such to be mandatory is ridiculous and just another way to force the woman to change her mind. Usually they've been through all the arguments in their own minds before they made the decision.

Doctors, as far as I'm concerned, should put their patients' needs before that of their own religious preferences. Should I be allowed to refuse to treat someone because I don't like their politics, their criminal records (if they have one), or their ethnicity?

Once that door is open it's very hard to close. There's a reason we take a hippocratic oath.

No but if they believe abortion equals murder or at least is ethically contrary to the doctor's ethical code/principles (this was discussed after abortion was legalized) they have the right to refuse it, you can't force someone to go against their convictions, it's called objection of conscience. Some of them are not really against abortion, but simply have some doubts and are not comfortable doing it. Specialized clinics have doctors or nurses that perform abortions without problems, this why we solve the problem of some doctors being against it.

The reflection of 3 days is mandatory to make sure there is no going back, they just don't want people (women) to regret their decisions, it's merely a safety mechanism, a psychologist will just listen to the woman and her arguments and then advise impartially without taking a pro life or pro choice stance

(July 1, 2014 at 5:53 pm)blackout94 Wrote: As a law student, I don't consider abortion a right per se, but a requirement to complement the Right to Family Planning. In other words, family rights is a principle and the right to abort is a sub-principle.

Sure, that's how it may work where you live, but it is not so here. It is absolutely a right (and that may even mean something different here than there - here it carries the meaning that the state cannot prevent you from getting an abortion, not that the must provide the means to do so).

(July 1, 2014 at 5:53 pm)blackout94 Wrote: I had an idea it was illegal in some states. Is it really legal just because the woman wants? In any circumstances?

Yes, up until a certain point, which varies by jurisdiction.

(July 1, 2014 at 6:02 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:53 pm)blackout94 Wrote: As a law student, I don't consider abortion a right per se, but a requirement to complement the Right to Family Planning. In other words, family rights is a principle and the right to abort is a sub-principle.

Sure, that's how it may work where you live, but it is not so here. It is absolutely a right (and that may even mean something different here than there - here it carries the meaning that the state cannot prevent you from getting an abortion, not that the must provide the means to do so).

(July 1, 2014 at 5:53 pm)blackout94 Wrote: I had an idea it was illegal in some states. Is it really legal just because the woman wants? In any circumstances?

Yes, up until a certain point, which varies by jurisdiction.

Logically, usually abortion is not allowed past a certain number of weeks (I think it goes from 12-20 according to each State's jurisdiction). Here you have the right to family planning, this includes contraception and abortion since having an unwanted child will go against your family plans. It makes sense. So if there are no clinics how does a woman abort? If it's legal there should be at least private entities providing it.

(July 1, 2014 at 6:01 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 5:58 pm)Beccs Wrote: A psych test is ridiculous unless the woman definitely shows emotional distress. Requiring such to be mandatory is ridiculous and just another way to force the woman to change her mind. Usually they've been through all the arguments in their own minds before they made the decision.

Doctors, as far as I'm concerned, should put their patients' needs before that of their own religious preferences. Should I be allowed to refuse to treat someone because I don't like their politics, their criminal records (if they have one), or their ethnicity?

Once that door is open it's very hard to close. There's a reason we take a hippocratic oath.

No but if they believe abortion equals murder or at least is ethically contrary to the doctor's ethical code/principles (this was discussed after abortion was legalized) they have the right to refuse it, you can't force someone to go against their convictions, it's called objection of conscience. Some of them are not really against abortion, but simply have some doubts and are not comfortable doing it. Specialized clinics have doctors or nurses that perform abortions without problems, this why we solve the problem of some doctors being against it.

The reflection of 3 days is mandatory to make sure there is no going back, they just don't want people (women) to regret their decisions, it's merely a safety mechanism, a psychologist will just listen to the woman and her arguments and then advise impartially without taking a pro life or pro choice stance

I'll remember that next time I'm required to perform surgery on some criminal.

"Objection of conscience". . .