(July 1, 2014 at 6:25 pm)blackout94 Wrote: But why can a minor have an abortion without consent but can't buy a house or celebrate a business? Even marriage before 18 years old needs parental consent.

It's not okay to marry for a minor
It's not okay to force motherhood on a minor

Easy peasy dude.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:01 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:25 pm)blackout94 Wrote: But why can a minor have an abortion without consent but can't buy a house or celebrate a business? Even marriage before 18 years old needs parental consent.

It's not okay to marry for a minor
It's not okay to force motherhood on a minor

Easy peasy dude.

Makes perfect sense, how come I had never though of it? Thanks. I was merely looking for a legal/constitutional justification.

(July 1, 2014 at 6:25 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Ok I was just curious about your opinion. But why can a minor have an abortion without consent but can't buy a house or celebrate a business? Even marriage before 18 years old needs parental consent. I'm not against it either but why allow an exception? What's the argument? Kids need parents consent for several surgeries too.

You've got it exactly backwards. Buying a house, having a business, and having a baby are all big responsibilities that would place undue pressure on the development of a young adult, as well as on the society when that young adult proves unable to fulfill the responsibility. If you tried to PREVENT a teenager from not having a business, or PREVENT a teenager from not owning a house whether they wanted to or not, that would be retarded and counterproductive to both the child's interests and the society's.

(July 1, 2014 at 6:50 pm)Beccs Wrote:

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(July 1, 2014 at 6:23 pm)blackout94 Wrote: You made a very good question. Of course objections are not infinite. Let's take the case of abortion or even gay marriage - Doctor refuses to give an abortion, is he endangering the life of the woman? In most cases no, unless her life is at stake, he is just refusing personally to give an abortion, she won't die from it and she can ask another doctor who is comfortable with it, that way everybody is happy. The same applies for gay marriage, a guy refuses to marry two gays, the couple asks another official to do it and he accepts, there will always be people that accept to marry them so everybody gets happy. In the surgery case you refuse and the patient dies if there is no other doctor to perform it. If you refuse abortion the woman most times won't die, even if she was forced to have a baby she most likely wouldn't die from it unless she made an illegal clandestine abortion, but if this happened it wouldn't the doctor who refused's fault.

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Objections, put it simply, end when more important rights are at stake. Let's imagine a Jehovah's witness parent refusing a minor a blood transfusion - In this cased it should not be allowed. But in the case of abortion, there is no reason to not allow it since it's still a controversial issue. The case you quoted of Muslim women should not be allowed if they endanger the patient's life, and the case of the murderer depends on the jail time and if he can be rehabilitated or not.

And there's the crux of it: "more important rights are at stake"

The more important rights here are that of the living, breathing woman over those of a cluster of cells.
Did you read the whole reply? If I refuse abortion to you, you can go to another clinic and they will make it, I am free to consider abortion murder it that's my thinking; if I refuse to treat a patient with surgery, he dies if there is no other doctor, if a blood transfusion is refused, there will most likely be a death, etc. They are different situations. No one is arguing a cluster of cells is more important, I was just saying doctors have the right to refuse and should continue to use it as long as they are not putting a life at stake by doing so. In the case of abortion they are not, like I said there are specialized clinics to perform it, everybody gets happy

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(July 1, 2014 at 7:04 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:25 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Ok I was just curious about your opinion. But why can a minor have an abortion without consent but can't buy a house or celebrate a business? Even marriage before 18 years old needs parental consent. I'm not against it either but why allow an exception? What's the argument? Kids need parents consent for several surgeries too.

You've got it exactly backwards. Buying a house, having a business, and having a baby are all big responsibilities that would place undue pressure on the development of a young adult, as well as on the society when that young adult proves unable to fulfill the responsibility. If you tried to PREVENT a teenager from not having a business, or PREVENT a teenager from not owning a house whether they wanted to or not, that would be retarded and counterproductive to both the child's interests and the society's.

Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

(July 1, 2014 at 6:55 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:48 pm)Bibliofagus Wrote: I was going to respond to something else but....

Wait what?

First of all, mister worried about taxes, a fucking psychologist on every abortion is - very -expensive.

Secondly, mister law student, I could very well be ten times as crazy as any woman wanting an abortion and take my axe and just murder someone. Should a psychologist just listen to me and my arguments and then advise impartially?

Thirdly, mister human being, how would you feel about - legally - having to visit a psychologist at some point in your life when you have to make a really, really, really difficult decision?

Reflection is there to prevent people from committing acts without thinking, it's just an insurance or safety measure, yes most women think about it and the consequences but there will always be some who don't think clearly about it. It's just a safety mechanism, will it hurt you? No it won't.

Yes it will. I can't even wrap my mind around you telling me that this isn't hurtful. To be told that I am not intelligent enough to think things through. To be told that I am not competent enough to make decisions on my own. This hurts my dignity. It is humiliating and it is cruel to force me to reassess a very private decision with a stranger who doesn't know me or my circumstances. As hard as it may be for some people to believe, women are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves. I get up everyday and put my big girl panties on and run my life just fine without help. I make my own choices and am responsible for my own actions. And if I need to see a psychologist I can make that decision on my own as well.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:25 pm)Losty Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:55 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Reflection is there to prevent people from committing acts without thinking, it's just an insurance or safety measure, yes most women think about it and the consequences but there will always be some who don't think clearly about it. It's just a safety mechanism, will it hurt you? No it won't.

Yes it will. I can't even wrap my mind around you telling me that this isn't hurtful. To be told that I am not intelligent enough to think things through. To be told that I am not competent enough to make decisions on my own. This hurts my dignity. It is humiliating and it is cruel to force me to reassess a very private decision with a stranger who doesn't know me or my circumstances. As hard as it may be for some people to believe, women are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves. I get up everyday and put my big girl panties on and run my life just fine without help. I make my own choices and am responsible for my own actions. And if I need to see a psychologist I can make that decision on my own as well.

Ok you are right, I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. This isn't about saying women aren't capable of decisions, it's about some people in general, men or women, being too dumb to realize consequences of their actions. If people were responsible enough, they could make public decisions instead of electing politicians, but it wouldn't work.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:07 pm)blackout94 Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 6:50 pm)Beccs Wrote: [hide]
And there's the crux of it: "more important rights are at stake"

The more important rights here are that of the living, breathing woman over those of a cluster of cells.

Did you read the whole reply? If I refuse abortion to you, you can go to another clinic and they will make it, I am free to consider abortion murder it that's my thinking; if I refuse to treat a patient with surgery, he dies if there is no other doctor, if a blood transfusion is refused, there will most likely be a death, etc. They are different situations. No one is arguing a cluster of cells is more important, I was just saying doctors have the right to refuse and should continue to use it as long as they are not putting a life at stake by doing so. In the case of abortion they are not, like I said there are specialized clinics to perform it, everybody gets happy

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(July 1, 2014 at 7:04 pm)bennyboy Wrote: You've got it exactly backwards. Buying a house, having a business, and having a baby are all big responsibilities that would place undue pressure on the development of a young adult, as well as on the society when that young adult proves unable to fulfill the responsibility. If you tried to PREVENT a teenager from not having a business, or PREVENT a teenager from not owning a house whether they wanted to or not, that would be retarded and counterproductive to both the child's interests and the society's.

Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

And if I refuse life giving surgery to someone they can go to another surgeon.

This is easy, isn't it?

I am not offended by you personally. I am just offended by this idea that a pregnant woman should be put on display for society to decide if she's capable of making her own choices. Having an abortion is the removal of one non sentient life from the body of a woman. She puts only herself at risk in doing so and it's a very slight risk.
Why do you not advocate that people should be forced to see a psychologist before they're allowed to drink alcohol outside their homes?
Take a step back and think about it.

(July 1, 2014 at 7:32 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(July 1, 2014 at 7:07 pm)blackout94 Wrote: Did you read the whole reply? If I refuse abortion to you, you can go to another clinic and they will make it, I am free to consider abortion murder it that's my thinking; if I refuse to treat a patient with surgery, he dies if there is no other doctor, if a blood transfusion is refused, there will most likely be a death, etc. They are different situations. No one is arguing a cluster of cells is more important, I was just saying doctors have the right to refuse and should continue to use it as long as they are not putting a life at stake by doing so. In the case of abortion they are not, like I said there are specialized clinics to perform it, everybody gets happy

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Teenagers are unable to celebrate business like it or not. A teenager can only celebrate a business with parents' consent. This is mostly due to maturity. A teenager cannot celebrate a contract buying a house or opening a business because they are not mature enough according to the law and are dependent on their parents money for everything, they mostly don't have autonomy nor money of their own to perform such actions

And if I refuse life giving surgery to someone they can go to another surgeon.

This is easy, isn't it?

you cannot if they die in the meantime. You can refuse if you have valid reasons, but there aren't any valid reasons to refuse to give surgery to someone who's life is in eminent danger, or are there? If it is an emergency you cannot refuse. An abortion is not generally an emergency. Why are you comparing the incomparable? Do you think forcing all doctors to give abortions would work? Think better.

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(July 1, 2014 at 7:33 pm)Losty Wrote: I am not offended by you personally. I am just offended by this idea that a pregnant woman should be put on display for society to decide if she's capable of making her own choices. Having an abortion is the removal of one non sentient life from the body of a woman. She puts only herself at risk in doing so and it's a very slight risk.
Why do you not advocate that people should be forced to see a psychologist before they're allowed to drink alcohol outside their homes?
Take a step back and think about it.

You are right, you've successfully changed my mind. This is something that rarely happens

I am not offended by you personally. I am just offended by this idea that a pregnant woman should be put on display for society to decide if she's capable of making her own choices. Having an abortion is the removal of one non sentient life from the body of a woman. She puts only herself at risk in doing so and it's a very slight risk.
Why do you not advocate that people should be forced to see a psychologist before they're allowed to drink alcohol outside their homes?
Take a step back and think about it.
You are right, you've successfully changed my mind. This is something that rarely happens
I'm not comparing the incomparable. I'm questioning why a doctor should have the right to refuse treatment selectively to patients. Where does the level of objection end.

And again, it depends on the condition of the patient.

A less drastic version of the example: If I refuse to treat a person because of their political leanings/their gender/or because I don't like the look of them they can always go to another surgeon, right?

Don't try to tell me to think clearly in an attempt to belittle me. It won't work. And, frankly, if we start down that trail, you'll lose.