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May 25, 2010 at 1:53 am (This post was last modified: May 25, 2010 at 3:04 am by tackattack.)
Scented Nectar Wrote:
(May 23, 2010 at 11:22 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1- Then you're being intellectually dishonest, IMO. Although I will fully admit that this post was the least smarmy, clearest and seemingly open conversational post we've had yet. Cheers for more to come.
What's dishonest about what I wrote? I'm not lying at all. Don't get too happy about my lack of rudeness, as that state of being without rudeness is always overcome by me eventually. Hell is a state of being without rudeness, you know.
That list does not cancel out any of the horrible bible commands, such as those to slaughter and enslave. Most in fact back those laws up, such as not killing, since death sentences for 'crimes' are not considered murder, and laws against freedom of sexuality such as killing 'adulterers' are still there, right on that supposedly good stuff list. There are a few nice suggestions to feed the poor and don't cheat in business, but that's nothing. Are there any particular ones on that page you think actually make up for the bad? That's what I want to see, not a few petty or vague nicey things which pale compared to the shit in the bible.
Quote:3- I can let you know clearly that your subjective experiences aren't something I share. I wouldn't add adjectives like crazy, stupid, ignorant, closed-minded, silly or foolish to the word claim. If I had questions I'd ask them respectfully and with an open mind. Your belief in fairies doesn't force me to accept anything. You believe it's true, that's great.. it has nothing to do with my view of reality until it presents itself or it's evidence to me. I can't disprove any of your subjective experisnces. If you live your life without infringing on anyone else's freedoms and you make a positive influsence on society; If you handle reality logically and rationally; it's far more likely that you have insight that I do not, rather than you're delusional.
Then you are giving flowers fairies more respect and credibility than they have earned. By default you are extending this to the belief, probably because you think faith is an admirable thing. You must think that or you wouldn't do it, since faith is illogical and counterproductive to any and all truths searched for. It just doesn't make sense to pre-decide what the answer is going to be, not if one is searching for the real answers. Faith should clue you in to the fact that reality, logic and rationality are NOT part of the picture.
1- I don't believe you've said anything you don't mean or have out right lied intentionally. My point being your onesidedness. If you see God, even only as a human concept, projected to the universe(and I believe you do) You're still ignoring the duality that would inately entail. Here are some examples:
(May 18, 2010 at 8:50 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: "So, where are the good parts? I've read most of it. Nothing presented to me as moral and good by any of you christians actually IS good. I'm still waiting..... Oh yeah, that one stolen sentence doesn't count about do unto others. That was stolen from other philosophies, ones that say the same thing. The bible just surrounded the sentence with cruelty and horrors and lies about magic filling the rest of the book."
" Your godboy is vengeful, angry, jealous, etc. Great personality points, eh? You worship the devil you believe in. You just don't realize it yet."
" Why did your god make these hideous laws? "
Here's my very simplified thoughts on a more even approach:
Does God kill people? yes
Does God save people? yes
Does God seperate the good from the bad? yes
Is there justice in his reasoing? IMO, yes.
Does injustice happen? yes.
2- You're not going to find anything that cancels out anything is what I'm saying. You're looking at the rules and yes a lot of them are outdated. The one's referenced (outside the 10) were created by man for man and have been used to manipulate, control, sieze land/wealth/people for centuries and it's a travesty, IMO. Bickering over my interpretation on the book as a whole when it comes to laws vs. yours isn't getting anywhere. I believe in Jesus' interpretation of the law and his message of love, forgiveness and questioning. If yoou're loking for the parts of the Bible, that are the crux of why I consider God good to me, I'll point a few out, and I'll try and give you the gist.
Theese don't "cancel out" anything. Let me give you an excerpt
"Structure-Proposition-Evaluation (SPE) method, popularized by Mortimer Adler in How to Read a Book, mainly for non-fiction treatise, in which one reads a writing in three passes: (1) for the structure of the work, which might be represented by an outline; (2) for the logical propositions made, organized into chains of inference; and (3) for evaluation of the merits of the arguments and conclusions. This method involves suspended judgment of the work or its arguments until they are fully understood. "
I think yoou're not suspending judgement, and your chains of inference are horribly one sided. I can completely understand why your opinons of the merits of the Bible are the way they are.
And just so you can appreciate it, Not even the Catholic church believes in the inerreant accuracy of the Bible.
3- You say faith is illogical and counterproductive and I disagree. Blind faith is illogical and counterproductive and I don't appreciate blind faith. I wasn't speaking of blind faith though. I believe I linked to Arcanus' explination of faith somewhere above.
I need admin help ,help I can't find what's wrong with the code?- TYVM DW
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 25, 2010 at 12:57 am)Godschild Wrote: God is not forcing me to love Him it's my choice it's what I want to do.
So, you don't do it because you are expected to? You love/idolize him to such an extent that you capitalize pronouns referring to him. What's with that silly stuff? The bible constantly orders you to love him, sometimes using different words like worship, praise, into yer heart, or whatever. One of your sacred commandments is an order to not love other gods because your god wants it all to himself, even admits he's jealous. If you don't love god, you're a sinner in his eyes. I mean what the fuck? The whole bible is one big love/obey god-fest.
And how do you 'choose' to love? You either feel the emotion love, or you don't. If you have chosen to feel it, and then intentionally try and feel it resulting in kind of feeling it, then you have just done the faith version of love. Way to taint what should be a nice and true emotion for yourself. Rather than really feel and enjoy it and find it awesome for just being what it is, it's a taste of god's goodness tossed as a crumb to unworthy you, who couldn't possibly feel such a thing without his mercy and magnificence. Do I have that right? Is it something like that?
Quote:I do go out living life in and with love and I try to live a good moral life and not because I'm commanded to I do this I do this to show others what God has done in and for my life.
That's sad. Your motivation for being good is to thank god and tout the worship and obeying his commands. Being good for the sake of being good is much more authentic and purely motivated by goodness and true morality. The goodness inspired by religions however, are motivated by the believers being convinced that god wants them to do this or that, and that goodness means whatever god says it means. For a believer, the warm and fuzzy feeling from being good is probably the nice being-approved-of feeling, where god loves you for being so obedient.
Quote:I try to do the things I should in thanks to God for redeeming this unworthy person.
Why are you assuming you are starting from some default 'unworthy' position? That's pretty fucking pathetic. They have convinced you that any bad feelings you have inside you, can be cured with god/belief/love rather than actually looking into what has really caused you to feel bad. You can walk with that crutch all your life, or you can fix your leg and not need it after that.
Quote:There's no way I can deny Gods love for me because His love cost Him a very high price.
Really? What high price? Do you mean when god pretended to be a human and died in a way that was less painful than many humans have experienced when injured or dying? Didn't your god already know what pain was, since he invented pain and dying? Seriously, what high price do you think your god had to pay?
Quote:I know you do not understand this because you have chosen to disbelieve, that is a privilege God has given us, but your disbelief can not and will not change the fact that God is real.
Belief is not a choice, except when one convinces oneself to believe before evidence (and even after no evidence appears), and believing in that way is called faith. Faith is not true belief, it is an induced state of convincing oneself, self delusion to the point where one actually does kind of believe it. They must then battle 'doubts' whenever their mind naturally, and healthily, questions anything regarding it. True belief/disbelief just simply happens. If your god were real, and made himself known to me, I wouldn't have the choice about believing. I simply would believe, since he would be shown as real and not just in my mind. The choice would then be whether to try and follow his hideous laws. If your god were real, and if it mattered to him that I believe he existed, he would show that he existed in a way that can't be denied. Unless he is stupid or sadistic, that is. Is your god too stupid to be able to prove to everyone he's even there? Is he so mean that he would set up a difficult to believe situation that guarantees some to fail, for which he then tortures the failees?
Quote:Your disblief does not cancel out my experiences with God.
Nor does your disbelief cancel out my experiences with the Fragrant Flower Fairies. They only created humans to poop out fertilizer, you know. We are only here to eat, and then poop, and and when not doing those things, breed more poopers. What, you don't believe me?
Quote:Why is it you believe God would be forcing one believe in Him, just because He gives us choices does not constitute force.
When the so called 'choice' is to believe or be punished, it is not really a choice, is it? He's not just warning you and saving you, you know. He's the one who decided you should be tortured forever. He's driving the truck he's telling you to step out of the way from. He's lighting the fucking match and locking you in the building and then telling you under what conditions he'll let you out. At least acknowledge that you are being coerced bigtime. Oh yeah, you can't think about that or you'll be punished. Never mind, I don't want to get you in trouble.
Good thing that monster you call god is not real !!!
Quote:Many people make wrong choices in their lives and pay a penalty for that choice and sometimes that penalty is for life and no one forced them to and they knew the consequences for their actions.
No one forced them? So, it's a choice and not forced, and god did not set up the whole punishment system, one which punishes the person for not thinking good emotions about the punisher? Really?
(May 25, 2010 at 1:53 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't believe you've said anything you don't mean or have out right lied intentionally. My point being your onesidedness. If you see God, even only as a human concept, projected to the universe(and I believe you do) You're still ignoring the duality that would inately entail. Here are some examples:
God is an imaginary being, thus a concept only. I do not project the definition to mean the universe. The universe is the universe. Most conclusions are 'one-sided'. Mine is less so than yours though. I am willing to believe in gods should they ever show themselves to be real by becoming perceivable. You are so unwilling to conclude anything other than what you've pre-determined the answer must be, that you need to call natural, very real things, like the your emotions and the universe, a god, just to keep convincing yourself that he exists. It's not that I blame you for doing this, because you do have the eternal torment/misery gun to your head. Inside your head actually, since if you do not control your thoughts, you are hellbound, it's not just your actions.
Quote:Here's my very simplified thoughts on a more even approach:
Does God kill people? yes
Does God save people? yes
Does God seperate the good from the bad? yes
Is there justice in his reasoing? IMO, yes.
Does injustice happen? yes.
Why was your god stupid or cruel enough to make such a world? Why have to save people from the killing which he made? Why does your god struggle with the evil he created? Can't he just think it away? If he is all just, why is there injustice? Just how weak is your god, anyways? Creates an enemy, satan/evil, that he then can't fight off. And before you say the bad stuff is just an absence of god, well, is he so unpowerful that he can't fill in those gaps that are everywhere? Where is the justice in setting up a system where some people are certain to fail, and then horribly punishing those people? At least if you need to believe in deities, find one that doesn't do stupid and immoral things like that. Don't follow the ones that people you've never even met from centuries ago made up.
Quote:If yoou're loking for the parts of the Bible, that are the crux of why I consider God good to me, I'll point a few out, and I'll try and give you the gist.
I looked at that first page you linked to, and still saw shit. You'll have to be a lot more specific, rather than pages that have a long collection of the bad stuff, like that first page did. I'm looking for the really good stuff. Show me something that cancels out the evil of killing people for nonharmful behaviour such as worshipping some other god or having consentual sex. Being fair in weights and measurements just doesn't do it, you know?
Quote:Theese don't "cancel out" anything. Let me give you an excerpt
"Structure-Proposition-Evaluation (SPE) method, popularized by Mortimer Adler in How to Read a Book, mainly for non-fiction treatise, in which one reads a writing in three passes: (1) for the structure of the work, which might be represented by an outline; (2) for the logical propositions made, organized into chains of inference; and (3) for evaluation of the merits of the arguments and conclusions. This method involves suspended judgment of the work or its arguments until they are fully understood. "
Yeah, thanks for explaining how to know what a book is saying {huh?}. I guess the bible forgot to include the warning "if you don't read this 3 times first while unecessarily splitting up your thinking/analysing process into 3 parts, one for each reading, you'll think it's saying the opposite of what it really means".
Quote:I think yoou're not suspending judgement, and your chains of inference are horribly one sided.
The one sidedness is a direct result of there being no 'inferences' in your biblebook. You can't even show me what sentences/paragraphs I'm supposed to 'infer' the real commands from. The bible is quite clear, kill, punish, torture, etc. for nonharmful behaviour and thoughts. Nothing in it 'infers' that it does not mean the things it says.
You think there is something I'm still missing that's in the bible. Well, what is it? I keep asking you christians to show me where there is something that changes the bad shit to good shit. At some point one has to stop suspending judgement. That point regarding the bible is when it is very clear that it is very very shitty in what it wants people to do and think. But I am openminded, so if you can show me that it ISN'T in fact so shitty, I'll change my opinion of it. I'm pretty sure you can't do that, or you would have by now, but I am still willing to give your claim a chance.
Quote:I can completely understand why your opinons of the merits of the Bible are the way they are.
If that is the case, then you must know exactly what I need to start believing it's a good rulebook to go by. Waiting.......
Quote:Blind faith is illogical and counterproductive and I don't appreciate blind faith. I wasn't speaking of blind faith though. I believe I linked to Arcanus' explination of faith somewhere above.
Faith IS blind faith. That is the only type. If it wasn't blind, it wouldn't be called faith. I glanced at your redefinition the other day, but did not memorize the vague and long definitions there. If it isn't faith you are practicing, then call it something else. I'm not going to try to keep remembering what you are really talking about when you use that word. And anyways, you DO practice faith. You are believing something because you have decided to, rather than as a result of the reality being perceived. You predecided/hoped that the world around you is god-infused, and now 'see' it and 'feel' it everywhere. Am I right?
(May 25, 2010 at 1:53 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't believe you've said anything you don't mean or have out right lied intentionally. My point being your onesidedness. If you see God, even only as a human concept, projected to the universe(and I believe you do) You're still ignoring the duality that would inately entail. Here are some examples:
God is an imaginary being, thus a concept only. I do not project the definition to mean the universe. The universe is the universe. Most conclusions are 'one-sided'. Mine is less so than yours though. I am willing to believe in gods should they ever show themselves to be real by becoming perceivable. You are so unwilling to conclude anything other than what you've pre-determined the answer must be, that you need to call natural, very real things, like the your emotions and the universe, a god, just to keep convincing yourself that he exists. It's not that I blame you for doing this, because you do have the eternal torment/misery gun to your head. Inside your head actually, since if you do not control your thoughts, you are hellbound, it's not just your actions.
Quote:Here's my very simplified thoughts on a more even approach:
Does God kill people? yes
Does God save people? yes
Does God seperate the good from the bad? yes
Is there justice in his reasoing? IMO, yes.
Does injustice happen? yes.
Why was your god stupid or cruel enough to make such a world? Why have to save people from the killing which he made? Why does your god struggle with the evil he created? Can't he just think it away? If he is all just, why is there injustice? Just how weak is your god, anyways? Creates an enemy, satan/evil, that he then can't fight off. And before you say the bad stuff is just an absence of god, well, is he so unpowerful that he can't fill in those gaps that are everywhere? Where is the justice in setting up a system where some people are certain to fail, and then horribly punishing those people? At least if you need to believe in deities, find one that doesn't do stupid and immoral things like that. Don't follow the ones that people you've never even met from centuries ago made up.
Quote:If yoou're loking for the parts of the Bible, that are the crux of why I consider God good to me, I'll point a few out, and I'll try and give you the gist.
I looked at that first page you linked to, and still saw shit. You'll have to be a lot more specific, rather than pages that have a long collection of the bad stuff, like that first page did. I'm looking for the really good stuff. Show me something that cancels out the evil of killing people for nonharmful behaviour such as worshipping some other god or having consentual sex. Being fair in weights and measurements just doesn't do it, you know?
Quote:Theese don't "cancel out" anything. Let me give you an excerpt
"Structure-Proposition-Evaluation (SPE) method, popularized by Mortimer Adler in How to Read a Book, mainly for non-fiction treatise, in which one reads a writing in three passes: (1) for the structure of the work, which might be represented by an outline; (2) for the logical propositions made, organized into chains of inference; and (3) for evaluation of the merits of the arguments and conclusions. This method involves suspended judgment of the work or its arguments until they are fully understood. "
Yeah, thanks for explaining how to know what a book is saying {huh?}. I guess the bible forgot to include the warning "if you don't read this 3 times first while unecessarily splitting up your thinking/analysing process into 3 parts, one for each reading, you'll think it's saying the opposite of what it really means".
Quote:I think yoou're not suspending judgement, and your chains of inference are horribly one sided.
The one sidedness is a direct result of there being no 'inferences' in your biblebook. You can't even show me what sentences/paragraphs I'm supposed to 'infer' the real commands from. The bible is quite clear, kill, punish, torture, etc. for nonharmful behaviour and thoughts. Nothing in it 'infers' that it does not mean the things it says.
You think there is something I'm still missing that's in the bible. Well, what is it? I keep asking you christians to show me where there is something that changes the bad shit to good shit. At some point one has to stop suspending judgement. That point regarding the bible is when it is very clear that it is very very shitty in what it wants people to do and think. But I am openminded, so if you can show me that it ISN'T in fact so shitty, I'll change my opinion of it. I'm pretty sure you can't do that, or you would have by now, but I am still willing to give your claim a chance.
Quote:I can completely understand why your opinons of the merits of the Bible are the way they are.
If that is the case, then you must know exactly what I need to start believing it's a good rulebook to go by. Waiting.......
Quote:Blind faith is illogical and counterproductive and I don't appreciate blind faith. I wasn't speaking of blind faith though. I believe I linked to Arcanus' explination of faith somewhere above.
Faith IS blind faith. That is the only type. If it wasn't blind, it wouldn't be called faith. I glanced at your redefinition the other day, but did not memorize the vague and long definitions there. If it isn't faith you are practicing, then call it something else. I'm not going to try to keep remembering what you are really talking about when you use that word. And anyways, you DO practice faith. You are believing something because you have decided to, rather than as a result of the reality being perceived. You predecided/hoped that the world around you is god-infused, and now 'see' it and 'feel' it everywhere. Am I right?
1- I am perfectly willing to come to any conclusion I see evidence toward. I'm not as locked into any conclusion as you'd like to believe. Your failure to see this is a point of frustration for me. I'm just going to have to conclude that you can't see it from my perspective and leave it alone. I haven't predecided anything and I'm not wishfull for God to be all around us or in an afterlife. I'd be just as happy tomorrow if today you'd disprove God.
2-Your using a very weak version of the POE by peppering it with ad hominem attacks. I can see you don't truly wish this conversation to go anywhere.
3- You are incorrect in your statement " You are believing something because you have decided to, rather than as a result of the reality being perceived." I am choosing to believe in something with subjective experience, logic, reason and commited trust. It is not despite reality, as much as you would like it to be.
4- I have linked yoou to the "good parts" of the Bible that even the agnostic atheists at the SAG to the Bible site will ackowledge. Your continuous refusal to even acknowledge them will bring this conversation to a swift close, which appears to be what you desire.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 26, 2010 at 4:56 am)tackattack Wrote: 2-Your using a very weak version of the POE by peppering it with ad hominem attacks. I can see you don't truly wish this conversation to go anywhere.
They are not ad hominem attacks on your god, since his alleged behaviours and rules are what are being discussed. Those are my opinions of that.
Quote:3- You are incorrect in your statement " You are believing something because you have decided to, rather than as a result of the reality being perceived." I am choosing to believe in something with subjective experience, logic, reason and commited trust. It is not despite reality, as much as you would like it to be.
You were unable to perceive your god until you first made yourself believe in him. That's the opposite order of true belief. With true belief, the acknowledgement of existence comes at or after the moments of perception.
Quote:4- I have linked yoou to the "good parts" of the Bible that even the agnostic atheists at the SAG to the Bible site will ackowledge. Your continuous refusal to even acknowledge them will bring this conversation to a swift close, which appears to be what you desire.
You linked to a bunch of typical bible crap. I don't care if other people think they're some super good parts of it. Let's start at the bottom of your links, going up, since the first one had a ton of quotes, all of which sucked in the goodness-that-outweighs-the-shit dept.
"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:"
What benefits? Does thinking nicey nicey thoughts about god stop the unjust killing?
"Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;"
Who cares if god feels forgiveness, he could just tell people to not do the iniquities he ordered them to do in the first place. And we know he doesn't heal all thy diseases, so why quote this lie? We know full well that your god does not make up for all his killing and torture by curing all the diseases (that he alse caused if we are to believe that he made everything).
"Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;"
Again, god saying that he is good, that he redeems, loves you and is tenderly merciful. Ahhh, that's so sweet. Now, where is the part where he says, "Remember how I told you to kill for me, and love me and stuff? Never mind."
"Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."
I don't see your god feeding the world. And I don't see anyone getting their youth renewed. What a liar your god is!
Anyways, it's obvious why that list is not at all what I was looking for. I only wrote the above sample ones because you claimed I was avoiding it. So, once again, where is the good stuff in the bible? The stuff that is good, so profound and awesome, that it completely makes the bad shit pale in comparison or even simply cancelled out?
Can you find me anything at all that is really good in that book? Rules about being fair in one's business dealings, while on the nice side of neutral, just aren't good enough to make the book a nice one. And don't give me vague references to being just, or righteous, or lawful etc, since we know the horrible rules that the bible considers to be just and right and lawful, etc.
May 26, 2010 at 8:03 am (This post was last modified: May 26, 2010 at 8:07 am by tackattack.)
(May 26, 2010 at 7:03 am)Scented Nectar Wrote:
(May 26, 2010 at 4:56 am)tackattack Wrote: 2-Your using a very weak version of the POE by peppering it with ad hominem attacks. I can see you don't truly wish this conversation to go anywhere.
They are not ad hominem attacks on your god, since his alleged behaviours and rules are what are being discussed. Those are my opinions of that.
Quote:3- You are incorrect in your statement " You are believing something because you have decided to, rather than as a result of the reality being perceived." I am choosing to believe in something with subjective experience, logic, reason and commited trust. It is not despite reality, as much as you would like it to be.
You were unable to perceive your god until you first made yourself believe in him. That's the opposite order of true belief. With true belief, the acknowledgement of existence comes at or after the moments of perception.
Quote:4- I have linked yoou to the "good parts" of the Bible that even the agnostic atheists at the SAG to the Bible site will ackowledge. Your continuous refusal to even acknowledge them will bring this conversation to a swift close, which appears to be what you desire.
You linked to a bunch of typical bible crap. I don't care if other people think they're some super good parts of it. Let's start at the bottom of your links, going up, since the first one had a ton of quotes, all of which sucked in the goodness-that-outweighs-the-shit dept.
"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:"
What benefits? Does thinking nicey nicey thoughts about god stop the unjust killing?
"Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;"
Who cares if god feels forgiveness, he could just tell people to not do the iniquities he ordered them to do in the first place. And we know he doesn't heal all thy diseases, so why quote this lie? We know full well that your god does not make up for all his killing and torture by curing all the diseases (that he alse caused if we are to believe that he made everything).
"Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;"
Again, god saying that he is good, that he redeems, loves you and is tenderly merciful. Ahhh, that's so sweet. Now, where is the part where he says, "Remember how I told you to kill for me, and love me and stuff? Never mind."
"Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."
I don't see your god feeding the world. And I don't see anyone getting their youth renewed. What a liar your god is!
Anyways, it's obvious why that list is not at all what I was looking for. I only wrote the above sample ones because you claimed I was avoiding it. So, once again, where is the good stuff in the bible? The stuff that is good, so profound and awesome, that it completely makes the bad shit pale in comparison or even simply cancelled out?
Can you find me anything at all that is really good in that book? Rules about being fair in one's business dealings, while on the nice side of neutral, just aren't good enough to make the book a nice one. And don't give me vague references to being just, or righteous, or lawful etc, since we know the horrible rules that the bible considers to be just and right and lawful, etc.
2- you are using emotive language, and unnecessary adjectives to strengthen your point which could be simply put "I think God is stupid" And then you take that obvious chip on your shoulder and chuck it at me constantly. I don't think I'm going to address this point anymore either.
3-Wrong. How many times have I said that perception precedes defintion, which precedes acknowledgement of existence, which precedes understanding. I think I'm done with this point too.
4- Here's 13 from just exodus since you have a hard time reading, I'll add the disclaimer that you're never going to get a list of good that outwieghs your skewed, cherry picked version of it. This is the last time I'm answering this question.
Honor thy father and thy mother." 20:12
"Thou shalt not kill." 20:13
"Thou shalt not commit adultery." 20:14
"Thou shalt not steal." 20:15
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 20:16
Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children. 22:21-22
Value the truth; don't lie. 23:1
Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong. 23:2
Be kind to your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 23:4-5
Treat the poor fairly. 23:6
Be honest. Don't kill the innocent. 23:7
Don't mistreat strangers. 23:9
Every seventh year the Israelites were to leave their fields unharvested, so that the poor would have something to eat. 23:11
Here's a lnk for the rest http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Just jumping in old boy. If I did wrong on most of those you listed, does that mean I'm hell bound? Hope so.
Quote:Honor thy father and thy mother." 20:12
Well I can honour my father but mother? She has a bloody anger problem.
So I fail here.
Quote:Thou shalt not kill." 20:13
Does killing millions of insects count? If so I fail here.
Quote:Thou shalt not commit adultery
Haven't done this yet but plan to. I pass this one but not for long.
Quote:Thou shalt not steal
Well I did steal a toy car when I was five and 2 pence when I was 14. I fail here
Quote:Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Haven't done this yet. I pass here but plan to fail it sometime in the future.
Quote:Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children.
Don't need a bible to tell me to be kind. I pass here.
Quote:Value the truth; don't lie
Big fat fail here.
Quote:Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong.
I fail here.
Quote:Be kind to your enemies. Do good to those who hate you.
Ha you got to be joking. Big fail here.
Quote:Treat the poor fairly.
No disagreements here. Pass.
Quote:Be honest. Don't kill the innocent.
Well honest sometimes, don't quite get the "don't kill the innocent. I still fail here though.
Quote:Don't mistreat strangers
What if there yobs or rapists? I fail here.
Does this mean I'm going to this made up hell that doesn't really exist?
Well that was fun.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
May 26, 2010 at 9:11 am (This post was last modified: May 26, 2010 at 9:12 am by tackattack.)
Ace it's not about whether we've personally failed at this or not or about the reward or punishment, it's about whether they're good or bad rules to follow. And particularly about ScentedNectars obstinant refusal that the Bible has any good in it.
Thanks for your input though and I don't think that you're going to hell because you broke the rules.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 26, 2010 at 9:11 am)tackattack Wrote: Ace it's not about whether we've personally failed at this or not or about the reward or punishment, it's about whether they're good or bad rules to follow.
That's not what your book says
(May 26, 2010 at 9:11 am)tackattack Wrote: And particularly about ScentedNectars obstinant refusal that the Bible has any good in it.
Because she has actually READ the bloody thing??
(May 26, 2010 at 9:11 am)tackattack Wrote: Thanks for your input though and I don't think that you're going to hell because you broke the rules.
Hel is a nice little place in Norway ....well probably nice at this time of year anyway. And you don't need to do much except pay the fare.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(May 26, 2010 at 8:03 am)tackattack Wrote: Here's 13 from just exodus since you have a hard time reading, I'll add the disclaimer that you're never going to get a list of good that outwieghs your skewed, cherry picked version of it. This is the last time I'm answering this question.
Honor thy father and thy mother." 20:12
The full thing is "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." Does that mean to obey them or to consider them honourable? Both are bad laws. The first means that even if they are cruel unfit parents, you have to obey them, and the second means that even if they are cruel unfit parents, you have to think nice things about them. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Quote:"Thou shalt not kill." 20:13
This command is only applied to those who are not a different religious belief/practice, gay, female, disobedient around parents, wearing more than one type of fabric, etc. The other parts of the bible make it very clear that those who kill by god's command are not guilty of anything such as that commandment. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Quote:"Thou shalt not commit adultery." 20:14
How is this a good commandment????? According to the bible, I am committing adultery if I have sex with anyone other than the man my father sells me to. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Quote:"Thou shalt not steal." 20:15
That's a rather mild good general law, one which does not make up for slaughter and oppression. Is this the best the bible has to show me? At least modern secular law isn't so vague about theft. It's very detailed, fair and refined from continual improvement. The bible is behind the times. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Quote:"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 20:16
Kill them, but don't lie about them. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Quote:Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children. 22:21-22
"Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child." Another vague nicey thing. And of course, there is nothing here that says the vague nonafflictingness should extend to not killing them when god orders you to. Where's the good in this biblebook?
Fuck the rest, this is tiring. You keep presenting me with stuff that's either vile, or vague, or at best so mild a goodness that, like the weights and measures, it doesn't do anything.
Cheers for more to come.
