(May 26, 2010 at 6:46 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Quote:Love motivates the best actions possible in us,
Hate motivates the worst actions possible in us.

Love motivates the "worst" actions 'possible' in us... from blinding ourselves to the thing we love, to jealousy, to fixation on the one, few, or many.
Hate motivates the "best" actions 'possible' in us... from a strong will to see 'justice' done, to fuel against 'injustice', to giving people a strong sense of personality.

That love makes you do stupid things doesn't make love bad. Obsession is love plus lack of control. Love on it's own isn't these things.
There's justified anger and hate.. again... different things. Hatred doesn't bring about justice. anger - controlled and tempered.. brings about justice.

---

(May 26, 2010 at 6:46 pm)Saerules Wrote: We gonna see this tally updated now?

Nope

(May 26, 2010 at 6:57 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Racism is hatred. Rage fueled, irrational hatred. I sincerely doubt that neo-nazi skinheads are only experiencing acute dislike for black skinned people. It's more than that. It is destructive dislike taken to an obsessive level.

Racism is a natural defence system. It's rationally based on defending your interests. Neo-Nazi skinheads magnify the natural instinct to illogical levels. Society condemns the natural instinct.

(May 26, 2010 at 6:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Society condemns the natural instinct.

As it should in such cases. It's uncivilized! *leans back, puffing on his pipe and sipping his cognac*

(May 26, 2010 at 6:57 pm)Paul the Human Wrote:

(May 26, 2010 at 6:46 pm)Saerules Wrote: Instead of all these metaphorical definitions... let us go with the one that is applicable and intuitive: Love is an 'acute' liking... hate is an acute disliking. Wasn't that easy?

This line pretty much sums up your entire post and I completely agree. I would add that 'acute' is meant in the extreme. Hate is extreme dislike. But isn't that just the surface? Just the meaning of the word?

Racism is hatred. Rage fueled, irrational hatred. I sincerely doubt that neo-nazi skinheads are only experiencing acute dislike for black skinned people. It's more than that. It is destructive dislike taken to an obsessive level. Philosophical definitions begin to have a place in the discussion again when you look at it that way.

It isn't always an extreme though... sometimes it is used for relatively simple gestures as "I love the ballet" (as a virtual replacement for like). I say acute to suggest that there is a subtle difference in the words that give love and hate more emphasis... in example: "I like to party!" and "I love to party"... just saying it aloud, one can feel the "relish" behind 'love' that is missing in 'like'. In another example... "I dislike dancing" and "I hate dancing"... just saying it aloud, one can feel the "venom" behind 'hate' that is absent in 'dislike'. And each of these words (love and hate) will accomplish very slightly different feelings in the people around a person.... Observe:

You are at a ball with your new girlfriend, and she is positively thrilled about dancing. When she asks if you'd like to dance... if you say, "I dislike dancing": she might beg for you to give it a go with her, where she will enjoy herself (even with you tripping over your overlarge feet). Whereas... if you say, "I hate dancing": she might be disappointed, and perhaps sullenly watch the other people dancing as she thinks about something you will both like to do... then she will invite you to her home for the night, where you will enjoy your night instead of fucking dancing. Also note: of instead you said, "I don't dance": she will roll her eyes, dump you on the spot, and go find herself a dancer... as you go home and get to sleep.

Further, observe:

Your new boyfriend comes to your house, tells you about a party, and asks if you'd like parties. If you answer him with, "I like to party": he'll pick you up at 'eight', and will drive into a forest at 100 kmh, killing you both. Fucking drunkard. If you said, "I love to party!": he'll pick you up at 'seven', get to the party early, have you drink the punch, leave with you, take you to a shack in the woods, rape you, and make you his slave for life. Fucking rapist. If, however... you said, "I don't party": He will promptly leave you for the fiery european lass next door, who will pull a gun on him when he opens the door, expecting her husband. Fucking asshole got what he deserved.


In seriousness though:
Racism can be hatred... but sometimes it is just fear... or even idolization. Racism can be 'positive' too, you know...

What we fear: we dislike. What makes us angry: we dislike. What hurts us: we dislike. Dislike is a broad word

Perhaps it is only that though: an obsession. And all definitions are philosophical ^_^

---

Fr0d0 Wrote:That love makes you do stupid things doesn't make love bad. Obsession is love plus lack of control. Love on it's own isn't these things.
There's justified anger and hate.. again... different things. Hatred doesn't bring about justice. anger - controlled and tempered.. brings about justice.

Alcohol makes you do stupid things... that doesn't make it bad? Obsession isn't always about love... it is rather "an idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind"... in other words: one can make vengeance their obsession... insomuch as one might make suicide their obsession (and i don't mean to imply this is intentional).

Love on it's own is simply itself... and love in itself can be a very 'negative' thing. Anger is "a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility"... Hatred is "a feeling of intense, passionate dislike". Hence: anger is necessarily dislike.

I have heard it questioned that anger and hate are ever justified at all... but it remains that a bloody carrot can bring about "justice": whyever could hatred not? Indeed... hatred is often the root of vengeance... and vengeance is considered by many people (especially through history and some religions) as 'just'. Anger is as likely as hatred to bring justice about... and indeed it could be questioned that they are so different at all.

Saerules Wrote:there is a subtle difference in the words that give love and hate more emphasis

...and you can intensify the words further by adding an expletive.

I like/ I love/ I really love/ I fucking really love/ I fucking fucking wow, shit bollocks fucking hell LOVE ...etc

fr0d0 Wrote:Racism is a natural defence system. It's rationally based on defending your interests. Neo-Nazi skinheads magnify the natural instinct to illogical levels. Society condemns the natural instinct.

Not always

Paul Wrote:As it should in such cases. It's uncivilized! *leans back, puffing on his pipe and sipping his cognac*

Natural instrinct may be 'uncivilized' in your civilization... that does not mean there is not a society that is based around those very instincts

---

(May 26, 2010 at 7:48 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

Saerules Wrote:there is a subtle difference in the words that give love and hate more emphasis

...and you can intensify the words further by adding an expletive.

I like/ I love/ I really love/ I fucking really love/ I fucking fucking wow, shit bollocks fucking hell LOVE ...etc

Indeed you can

But wouldn't it be kinder to the tongue to say "I really fucking love!"... and wouldn't so many expletives as your last one actually detract from how much you love it?

(May 26, 2010 at 7:33 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Fr0d0 Wrote:That love makes you do stupid things doesn't make love bad. Obsession is love plus lack of control. Love on it's own isn't these things.
There's justified anger and hate.. again... different things. Hatred doesn't bring about justice. anger - controlled and tempered.. brings about justice.

Alcohol makes you do stupid things... that doesn't make it bad? Obsession isn't always about love... it is rather "an idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind"... in other words: one can make vengeance their obsession... insomuch as one might make suicide their obsession (and i don't mean to imply this is intentional).

No, alcohol isn't bad. Obsessive drinking is. Obsessive love is bad.

'Obsessive' <---here's the baddy!

(May 26, 2010 at 7:33 pm)Saerules Wrote: Love on it's own is simply itself... and love in itself can be a very 'negative' thing. Anger is "a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility"... Hatred is "a feeling of intense, passionate dislike". Hence: anger is necessarily dislike.

No, love can't be negative.

(May 26, 2010 at 7:33 pm)Saerules Wrote: I have heard it questioned that anger and hate are ever justified at all... but it remains that a bloody carrot can bring about "justice": whyever could hatred not? Indeed... hatred is often the root of vengeance... and vengeance is considered by many people (especially through history and some religions) as 'just'. Anger is as likely as hatred to bring justice about... and indeed it could be questioned that they are so different at all.

Anger is justified rage. there's nothing wrong with being angry - it's a response to injustice that doesn't necessitate excess or an imbalance in the reaction.

Hate on the other hand, is out of control anger.

(May 26, 2010 at 7:49 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Paul Wrote:As it should in such cases. It's uncivilized! *leans back, puffing on his pipe and sipping his cognac*

Natural instrinct may be 'uncivilized' in your civilization... that does not mean there is not a society that is based around those very instincts

We aren't talking about that hypothetical society. We are talking about our society. In our society, racist extremism is frowned upon, to say the least. You are creating arguments out of thin air by taking words and phrases and changing their context. It really does nothing to further the discussion. In fact, it clouds and derails and avoids the discussion.

Fr0d0 Wrote:No, alcohol isn't bad. Obsessive drinking is. Obsessive love is bad.

A colorless volatile flammable liquid that is intoxicating isn't bad for you?!

Quote:No, love can't be negative.

Why not?

Quote:Anger is justified rage. there's nothing wrong with being angry - it's a response to injustice that doesn't necessitate excess or an imbalance in the reaction.

Hate on the other hand, is out of control anger.

What makes anger justified? It is not even always in response to injustice... and often blinds us to the injustice we will make through our anger. Methinks you're just overcomplicating hate

(May 26, 2010 at 7:58 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Fr0d0 Wrote:No, alcohol isn't bad. Obsessive drinking is. Obsessive love is bad.

A colorless volatile flammable liquid that is intoxicating isn't bad for you?!

No. It can be medicinal. It 'can' be good for you. Lot's of things have the potential to harm you, that doesn't make them 'bad'.

(May 26, 2010 at 7:58 pm)Saerules Wrote:

Quote:No, love can't be negative.

Why not?

Because you'd have to redefine love, or add in conditionals like excess or obsession which when added to love, make for something undesirable.

(May 26, 2010 at 7:58 pm)Saerules Wrote: What makes anger justified? It is not even always in response to injustice... and often blinds us to the injustice we will make through our anger. Methinks you're just overcomplicating hate

Methinks you mix up the two. Anger mishandled can lead to excess. Again we're having to add a qualifier. The saying : "Don't go sleep on your anger" illustrates the potential for anger to turn into what is really bad : hatred.

Paul Wrote:We aren't talking about that hypothetical society. We are talking about our society. In our society, racist extremism is frowned upon, to say the least. You are creating arguments out of thin air by taking words and phrases and changing their context. It really does nothing to further the discussion. In fact, it clouds and derails and avoids the discussion.

Nor am I talking about a hypothetical society. In fact, there are some societies that outright shun technology... such as a number of Alaskan 'native's. "Our" society is a confused construct too... there are many societies to which I belong... and they are not necessarily the ones to which you belong. I might assume that you are referring to 'American' society in general... but even here there are so many differences that just what the general American society is... is questionable.

Racist extremism is not always frowned upon in our society... and indeed is practiced upon nonhumans within our society often. There are breeds of dogs that are considered superior because of their race... there are horses who are favored in races because of their race... there are salmon who get a better price in marketing because of their race. Don't try to tell me racism is frowned upon by our society... be more specific: human racism. And really... is a dislike of skin color (and treating those with that skin color differently than normal, so as to justify as racism) so different than a dislike of a haircut (and treating those with that haircut differently than normal, so as to justify as haircutism)?

Many very good arguments are created by turning an ideal into a situation, to examplarify it. If this disturbs you, then perhaps one shouldn't hold such ideals Rather, it expands the discussion... and allows for subjects to be brought in that relate to the topic, but would otherwise have to wait for someone to create a new topic. If someone makes a thread asking "Who's your favorite guitarist"... and one likes several equally: should they have to wait until someone makes a thread asking "Who are your favorite guitarists"?

---

fr0d0 Wrote:No. It can be medicinal. It 'can' be good for you. Lot's of things have the potential to harm you, that doesn't make them 'bad'.

True... just about anything 'can' be good for you. Why should love be considered necessarily good, when just about anything 'can' be bad?

---

Oops...

fr0d0 Wrote:Because you'd have to redefine love, or add in conditionals like excess or obsession which when added to love, make for something undesirable.

Why would you have to do that? I wasn't away that part of love's definition was that it is necessarily not negative

Quote:Methinks you mix up the two. Anger mishandled can lead to excess. Again we're having to add a qualifier. The saying : "Don't go sleep on your anger" illustrates the potential for anger to turn into what is really bad : hatred.

'mishandled'?

Anger alone can lead to murder... or it can inspire (to murder)... or it can explode your coronary (and murder you). How are you defining anger and hatred here? We apparently have much different definitions for the two