(September 9, 2014 at 11:50 am)theophilus Wrote:

(September 8, 2014 at 12:48 pm)StealthySkeptic Wrote: Allowing a criminal to go free simply because they're brown nosing up to the warden, and punishing an innocent man in their place, are both reprehensible.

What if the innocent man volunteers to accept the guilty man's punishment?

Doesn't matter. The guilt isn't legitimate.

God has far more to answer for than any sinner.

(September 9, 2014 at 4:38 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(September 9, 2014 at 11:50 am)theophilus Wrote: What if the innocent man volunteers to accept the guilty man's punishment?

Doesn't matter. The guilt isn't legitimate.

When Jesus was dying on the cross God actually transferred our guilt to him. This is something no human legal system can do.

(September 10, 2014 at 12:09 pm)theophilus Wrote:

(September 9, 2014 at 4:38 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Doesn't matter. The guilt isn't legitimate.

When Jesus was dying on the cross God actually transferred our guilt to him. This is something no human legal system can do.

Sure we can. We even have a word for it. Scapegoating. I'd like to think most people think scapegoating is a bad thing. Regardless of who does it, though, it's still wrong for the innocent to suffer in the place of the guilty.

(September 10, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(September 10, 2014 at 12:09 pm)theophilus Wrote: When Jesus was dying on the cross God actually transferred our guilt to him. This is something no human legal system can do.

Sure we can. We even have a word for it. Scapegoating. I'd like to think most people think scapegoating is a bad thing. Regardless of who does it, though, it's still wrong for the innocent to suffer in the place of the guilty.

It isn't the same thing. Scapegoating is shifting the blame for something to an innocent person. Jesus took the actual sins and guilt. One of the things he said on the cross was, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" At that point sin was an actual barrier that separated him from God.

Sin is a concept, though. It's not an actual thing. The closest thing it could be is like PTSD, where he's mentally burdened. Except it never mentions him being mentally traumatized. He had conversations with people three days after that went down, and he's said to be on a throne at the right hand of Yahweh.

None of it really makes sense. It's not a good system. It doesn't really do anything besides satiate your god's bloodlust. Your god is the one that has the problem. Not us.

No one is moral (Romans 3:23), but God will give eternal life to everyone who repents.

Meaning: God exist, you're a sinner, sinning is awful, you cannot save yourself, Jesus is God and died for you, trust him.

As for bad Theist going to Heaven, I don't know. I'd just remember that God judges justly.

(September 8, 2014 at 12:31 pm)theophilus Wrote: When someone becomes a Christian God knows every sin he has committed and every sin he will commit in the future. All of those sins are forgiven at the time of salvation.

Okay, so that's free-will out the window then! But assuming you're defining god as omniscient, wouldn't he also know 'every sin...' irrespective of whether someone's saved or not?

Quote:Not all theists understand what the Bible teaches. There is a morality that God gives to all, even those who don't believe in God.

What Exian said that robvalue said.

Quote:This Godgiven morality can be overwritten by the teaching a child receives as he grows up but everyone possesses an innate sense of right and wrong.

What of those sincere believers with clinical psychopathy/sociopathy? They possess no innate sense of right & wrong; they are clinically amoral and can never do more than imitate the behaviour of moral agents.

Quote:Those who have never heard of the Bible will be judged by how well they have lived up to what they do know.

I'll refer you to the famous quote:

Quote:Inuit: If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?
Priest: No, not if you did not know.
Inuit: Then why did you tell me?

If god really wanted us all to go to heaven, if he loved us as is claimed, all he would have to have done is hidden his existence from us. The fact that god's vanity, narcissism, need to be worshiped and to force subservience on humanity has led, under your mythology, to the majority of people burning for eternity in hell-fire demonstrates that he is not a moral, just or loving being by any worthy definition of morality, justice or love. We can conclude, therefore, that he can not be the source of morality as. Further, I would suggest that most people are more moral than the god of the bible as they would never want to behave in such a way towards others and would oppose that behaviour if they saw someone else exhibiting it. I've never truly understood why christians think that god gets a free-pass for his behaviour just because he can kill us but probably the compulsory fear & love instruction is at the core of it (see later).

Quote:Merely believing that God exists isn't enough for salvation.

And here we see a major point of contention between various denominations. The idea that actions are as necessary for salvation as belief has been something that people have been willing to kill & die for.

Quote:The belief that brings forgiveness consists of acknowledging your sinfulness and being willing to turn from your sins and believe that Christ died to atone from them. The person who does this is reborn with a spiritual nature that wants to obey God. He still have his old sinful nature so he can still sin but he can't simply live a life of sin the way he could have before he was saved.

Some say that belief is enough because sincere belief causes a change in behaviour; since behaviour alone is not enough (for those who are aware that belief is an option), it can be removed from the equation. Clearly you're not one of them. This is patently bad logic though because people with sincere christian beliefs can commit moral atrocities. Further, they can use the bible to justify them.

Quote:The Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If someone begins to fear God because he realizes that he is a sinner this fear should lead him to find out how he can be forgiven.

And here we see the totalitarian principle in full effect. To translate: 'Be ruled by your fear, because that will teach you how to properly appease God'. This is sickening, grotesque, a debasement of human courage.
Oh, and you're ordered to simultaneously love the subject of your fear on pain of everlasting torture. So much for christian morality.