(September 15, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There is also a call to genocide in the OT. Is that not killing? You know the folks that swung the sword were actually punished because they didn't -complete- said genocide thoroughly enough for OT god, right? Lesson being, when god tells you to off a motherfucker you do it once, and altogether. No half assed killing in the name of the lord - or your neck is the next one the axe will fall upon.
(murder, btw, is the distinction that most make there, thou shalt not murder...OT god is awash in the blood of those that have been killed, and gloriously so, clearly it doesn't take issue with -killing-)

I will not lie, the Old Testament is pretty gruesome. However I have not read it in quite some time I apologize for not remembering this verse, besides, many people follow the New Testament or the Quran, only a very small minority (which is still amazingly capable at committing various acts of crimes against humanity) follow the Old Testament.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 15, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There is also a call to genocide in the OT. Is that not killing? You know the folks that swung the sword were actually punished because they didn't -complete- said genocide thoroughly enough for OT god, right? Lesson being, when god tells you to off a motherfucker you do it once, and altogether. No half assed killing in the name of the lord - or your neck is the next one the axe will fall upon.
(murder, btw, is the distinction that most make there, thou shalt not murder...OT god is awash in the blood of those that have been killed, and gloriously so, clearly it doesn't take issue with -killing-)

I will not lie, the Old Testament is pretty gruesome. However I have not read it in quite some time I apologize for not remembering this verse, besides, many people follow the New Testament or the Quran, only a very small minority (which is still amazingly capable at committing various acts of crimes against humanity) follow the Old Testament.

For someone who is apparently so well-versed on religion, you seem....really really shittily versed on religion.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: In the Old Testament one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not kill, I don't ever remember reading anywhere Jesus telling to kill the unbelievers,

No, Jesus never said any of that. But there are something like 613 commandments in the bible, some of which include: stone homosexuals, kill atheists and the entire village in which they live, burn witches, kill people who work on the Sabbath.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: Perhaps if you wouldn't ill treat them so much they wouldn't say you need to be killed? I think you fail to understand how much some atheists insult religion and the followers of religion.

No no no no. What the actual fuck? These theists calling for atheists to be shot and killed have never actually met an atheist. They become irrationally offended when anything negative is said about their religion. It's the one thing that you just can't talk about. I can tell you how crap your football team is, I can tell you your political views are wrong, but when it comes to religion, followers go absolute batshit crazy.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: Granted I am not condemning religion, I have no reason to. I know what ails the world and it is not religion, I am seeking to guide you on the right path for you to find out the true source of suffering.

Have you been watching the news this past year? ISIS ring any bells?

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: I could tell you, I could give you all the evidence in the world, I've tried it many times before. Like religious people many atheists have faith, faith in their dominions, and no matter how much evidence I presented to them they would not believe. They... all of them... rejected the evidence like creationists reject evolution, the atheists I debated with held on to their faith.

Did you actually provide any evidence or did you simply claim there is some? The latter me thinks.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: I know now that I can not simply tell people, for they would never believe me. It tore me asunder to know that atheists whom I long believed were intellectual rational beings were just like the followers of religion whom I had been 'fighting' against for so long. Now I only have one mission in life, to promote peace and equality among the many clans of humanity, and to end the corruption that is rife in the dominions. To do that I need to learn how to change you, how to make you look at the REAL problem.

I'm an atheist and i'm nothing like a theist. I have no dogma, no world view, no creed, and I am capable of critically analysing claims and situations and adjusting my beliefs based on available evidence and I can assess the credibility of the source of that evidence. I do not blindly follow anything. You are wrong to claim that atheists are just like theists.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:57 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

I am skeptical of these quotes, allow me a bit of time to read the quran with these verses and I shall get back to you on it.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Celestine Wrote: I will not lie, the Old Testament is pretty gruesome. However I have not read it in quite some time I apologize for not remembering this verse, besides, many people follow the New Testament or the Quran, only a very small minority (which is still amazingly capable at committing various acts of crimes against humanity) follow the Old Testament.

The people who don't follow the old testament are cherry-pickers. If a Xian tells you that they don't, they are lying. They certainly don't forget about the 10 commandments or all the rest of them. They don't forget about the origin of sin, without that, you couldn't have the rest of the religion. They simultaneously (and quite happily) quote the old testament verses about how homosexuality is an abomination, whilst ignoring the whole, 'kill these people, rape these people, enslave these people' parts. The bible is very specific on these things

(September 15, 2014 at 3:05 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 15, 2014 at 2:57 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Celestine, you seem to think the Quran is A-OK and doesn't have anything bad in it. Odd, since you are obviously on a computer with an internet connection and a few minutes of googling would show just how far off-base you are.

For example:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/...olence.htm

Notice the bit about chopping off heads. Who does that remind you of? Hint: ISIS.

Wonder where they got that crazy idea?
Hint: The Quran

Now from the good book itself:


And it goes on and on from there. And on and on and on and on...

And that's just the Quran. The Hadith has vast quantities of the same or worse.

Now that kind of prose is the very definition of "militant". Where is the atheist manual calling for the cutting off of heads of believers?
Hint: it doesn't exist

I am skeptical of these quotes, allow me a bit of time to read the quran with these verses and I shall get back to you on it.

Wait, you mean you can't be arsed to search the internet? This shit isn't hard to find, hon. Additionally, you come in here trying to remove all this violent stigma and historically dangerous role of religion, but you haven't even read the holy books that you're adamantly defending? Nice.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:08 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, you mean you can't be arsed to search the internet? This shit isn't hard to find, hon. Additionally, you come in here trying to remove all this violent stigma and historically dangerous role of religion, but you haven't even read the holy books that you're adamantly defending? Nice.

I am concerned for what came before and after those quotes, see as the poster above you said, a lot of people like to cherry pick. Personally I'd rather Christians cherry pick ones about love and equality than ones about rape and murder.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:05 pm)Celestine Wrote: I am skeptical of these quotes, allow me a bit of time to read the quran with these verses and I shall get back to you on it.

Be as skeptical as you like, I'll wait.

Next on your list to google -- Banu Qurayza - wherein Mohamed kills 400-900 men and enslaves 1,000 or so woman and children. Mohamed! What a peach of a guy! Perfect model man for everyone to follow!

Quote:After the Meccans' withdrawal, Muhammad then led his forces against the Banu Qurayza neighborhood. According to the Muslim tradition, he had been asked to do so by the angel Gabriel. The Banu Qurayza retreated into their stronghold and endured the siege for 25 days. As their morale waned, Ka'b ibn Asad suggested three alternative ways out of their predicament: embrace Islam; kill their own children and women, then rush out for a charge to either win or die; or make a surprise attack on the Sabbath. The Banu Qurayza accepted none of these alternatives. Instead they asked to confer with Abu Lubaba, one of their allies from the Aws. According to Ibn Ishaq, Abu Lubaba felt pity for the women and children of the tribe who were crying and when asked whether the Qurayza should surrender to Muhammad, advised them to do so. However he also "made a sign with his hand toward his throat, indicating that [their fate] at the hands of the Prophet would be slaughter".[49][50][51][52] The next morning, the Banu Qurayza surrendered and the Muslims seized their stronghold and their stores.[11][53] The men - numbering between 400 and 900[28][49] - were bound and placed under the custody of Muhammad ibn Maslamah, who had killed Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, while the women and children - numbering about 1,000[28] - were placed under Abdullah ibn Sallam, a former rabbi who had converted to Islam.[54][55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

(September 15, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Celestine Wrote: I will not lie, the Old Testament is pretty gruesome. However I have not read it in quite some time I apologize for not remembering this verse, besides, many people follow the New Testament or the Quran, only a very small minority (which is still amazingly capable at committing various acts of crimes against humanity) follow the Old Testament.

Ah yes, the NT, jesus meek and mild - and also the introduction of thoughtcrimes, vicarious redemption via blood magic, and hell. They can keep the NT, it's disgusting. At least OT god didn't care what you thought as long as you did the right thing - and when you were dead he was done screwing with you. NT god sentences you not for what you've done - but what you've thought about doing, resurrects you in an eternal torture chamber for your finite "crimes"....but might let you get off scott free by torturing some other entity in your stead.

:wipes his hands:

@JHC

Quote:kill their own children and women, then rush out for a charge to either win or die

-that would have been the way to go, imo - though I suppose they could have handed the women and children weapons as well and made the situation clear to them..."Save one round for yourself, give the rest to the enemy" sort of thing.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:12 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 15, 2014 at 3:08 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, you mean you can't be arsed to search the internet? This shit isn't hard to find, hon. Additionally, you come in here trying to remove all this violent stigma and historically dangerous role of religion, but you haven't even read the holy books that you're adamantly defending? Nice.

I am concerned for what came before and after those quotes, see as the poster above you said, a lot of people like to cherry pick. Personally I'd rather Christians cherry pick ones about love and equality than ones about rape and murder.

What a bizarre stance for an intellectually honest atheist to take. Oh..right..