(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: Ha! A known falsehood! Yes religion should be kept out of public schools, that I can agree with you, but your government does a much better job at indoctrination than religion ever could hope to do! After all the government makes those textbooks and puts their own falsehoods that they present as truths in them. If only you knew how much of the things in your history books were false and not more than mere propaganda!

If only you knew how to relate that to militant atheism. Now it sounds like your problem is with Americans, who are notoriously non-atheistic as a country.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: In the Old Testament one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not kill, I don't ever remember reading anywhere Jesus telling to kill the unbelievers, and in Islam it only permits it when the people are attacking and killing Muslims or when another person unjustly kills another. At least from what I've read of the Quran so far.

It's better translated as 'thou shalt not murder', lawful killing was allowed, even required. Adulterers and Sabbath-breakers were to be stoned and witches not suffered to live in the OT. It's a particularly horrid method of execution involving community-participation still practiced in some parts of the world.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: Perhaps if you wouldn't ill treat them so much they wouldn't say you need to be killed?

What exactly is it that you think militant atheists have done to them? Do you think it's our fault because militant atheists voted in droves for Bush? If so, you might want to engage in a little more research.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: I think you fail to understand how much some atheists insult religion and the followers of religion.

Yes, some atheists are rude. Some members of every group are rude. Nixon was a Quaker.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: Granted I am not condemning religion, I have no reason to.

You've no more reason to condemn atheism than religion.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: I know what ails the world and it is not religion, I am seeking to guide you on the right path for you to find out the true source of suffering.

You could have the secrets of the universe, and if you were too stupidly inept to attract followers, whose fault would it be that you don't have any?

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: I could tell you, I could give you all the evidence in the world, I've tried it many times before. Like religious people many atheists have faith, faith in their dominions, and no matter how much evidence I presented to them they would not believe.

'I have good evidence, honest' is what they all say.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: They... all of them... rejected the evidence like creationists reject evolution, the atheists I debated with held on to their faith.

Maybe they evaluated your claims critically and found the flaws in them that kept them from holding together. We'll never know, I guess.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: I know now that I can not simply tell people, for they would never believe me.

I do not see how telling people is not exactly the tack you've taken with us. Only without the evidence.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: It tore me asunder to know that atheists whom I long believed were intellectual rational beings were just like the followers of religion whom I had been 'fighting' against for so long.

Some people are atheists because they're rational. No one is rational because they're an atheist.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: Now I only have one mission in life, to promote peace and equality among the many clans of humanity, and to end the corruption that is rife in the dominions. To do that I need to learn how to change you, how to make you look at the REAL problem.

I suggest you try the tactic of not being an asshole and shitting on everyone you think doesn't already agree with you.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Celestine Wrote: Militant Atheism does far more harm than good and for any who call themselves atheists out there who believe that religion causes major problems in the world you are severely deluded to the political aspect of your world.

Militant Atheists seek to insult and belittle religious people who find their religion above all else to be logical, if they did not find their belief to be logical they would not believe in it. This form of logic is not dependent on evidence but rather it is a matter of faith. Further more you will never be able to argue against someone and win that argument, you will never be able to prove something for someone but they must prove it for themselves. In essence every atheist who is trying to disprove religion is wasting their time when they should be focusing more on the political agenda of their dominions... at least if they truly wanted to stop mass suffering on a global scale. All it achieves to do is create friction in a society where we should be living as a family, together, and inseparable. Instead we divide ourselves, by ethnicity, by political ideologies, by wealth, and by spiritual beliefs. It is from this division that we are so easily taken advantage of, and people like Richard Dawkins only seek to make the rift between us and our family deeper even if they themselves do not realize it. People in time will prove themselves wrong, making this whole militant atheism campaign a waste of time and if not a distraction and a scapegoat for governments to use to avert the eyes of the public from their political dealings.

I am not sure if this message will reach any of you, atheists in my experience are no better than theists when it comes to rationality. All they managed to do was fit two pieces of a puzzle together in a puzzle that has over a million pieces. There is so much to learn in this life we can ill afford to waste time in it.

So please reconsider your stance on religion.

I guess you make a point when you say religious people can not be persuaded with logic when their belief is faith based. I think it's possible though. I think raising awareness for atheism is pretty much paramount for the atheist movement aside from abolishing religion (that would be the ultimate goal). Your argument about how society should just be one big happy family is a nice sentiment besides the fact that what you're basically saying is to just shut up about atheism. Atheists in general are far more accepting than most religious groups btw. As for atheists being just as rational as theists LOL! That's bullshit. I will wear my atheist t shirt with pride, like like how the christians wear the crosses around their neck. I see no double standard here. If Christianity is acceptable to preach about and spread the word of, then so is atheism.

Erm..I wouldn't say that the "atheist movement" has an "ultimate goal" of abolishing religion. Just keep it out of my government.

(September 15, 2014 at 4:16 pm)Celestine Wrote: Even though I am an atheist, I believe in hell, I define hell as a place of pure ignorance. You purveyor of misinformation and ignorance, how shall I see you other than in my form of hell? I sincerely hope that you will abandon your hatred,, for it has made you blind, deaf, and dumb. These things you have said only keep you in your own little world of hatred. Were you to accept that it is not religion that causes problems in this world, then you would finally be able to help others. But here you sit with your tongue of falsehoods. How should I treat you? After I worked sincerely to clear up the misunderstanding of those quotes that JesusHChrist had erroneously posted believing that they were fanatic calls to war? How do you expect me to respect you after such a post as yours?

My tongue of falsehoods? Okay Achmed........

On the reals though, -how dare you insinuate that some religious groups interpretatations of their own holy texts is wrong, you....militant.....atheist.

Quote:Truly you reside in a hell far worse than any theology can create.

Weathers fine here, bit nippy for this time of year, but I'm not getting sodomized by djinn so I doubt that I've somehow woken up in hell. If I have and just don't realize it...I gotta say...it's nothing like the brochures.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Celestine Wrote:

(September 15, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There is also a call to genocide in the OT. Is that not killing? You know the folks that swung the sword were actually punished because they didn't -complete- said genocide thoroughly enough for OT god, right? Lesson being, when god tells you to off a motherfucker you do it once, and altogether. No half assed killing in the name of the lord - or your neck is the next one the axe will fall upon.
(murder, btw, is the distinction that most make there, thou shalt not murder...OT god is awash in the blood of those that have been killed, and gloriously so, clearly it doesn't take issue with -killing-)

I will not lie, the Old Testament is pretty gruesome. However I have not read it in quite some time I apologize for not remembering this verse, besides, many people follow the New Testament or the Quran, only a very small minority (which is still amazingly capable at committing various acts of crimes against humanity) follow the Old Testament.

What we like most about Jews is the vast, vast majority of them have no problem at all not obeying the bloodier commands of their Lord or regarding their text as a valid tool of military recruitment (you have to serve in the military because the Talmud says so). We want the same from Muslims and everyone else: if people of a religion become known for being violent, we wish that they would become better cherry-pickers and focus on the verses that encourage peace.

The majority of Muslims are peaceful. But Islamists definitely use the 'sword verses' of the Qu'ran to recruit terrorists, and that's part of the problem, part of what makes it so easy to motivate discontented Muslims to violence.

Quote:Nope. Religion is delusion. Delusional people can be dangerous.

There is more things to be delusional about than just religion.

(September 15, 2014 at 4:09 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, an atheist ashamed of being an atheist that claims Obama and Hitler are atheists? Are you sure you're not a plant from Fox News or something?

I said I was ashamed to be labeled with other atheists, I have no shame in being an atheist, just when people define atheists they look at the worst and will define me as the worst. Just how atheists view religious people only by looking at their worst and grouping them altogether as the worst.

(September 15, 2014 at 4:33 pm)Celestine Wrote:

Quote:Nope. Religion is delusion. Delusional people can be dangerous.

There is more things to be delusional about than just religion.

(September 15, 2014 at 4:09 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, an atheist ashamed of being an atheist that claims Obama and Hitler are atheists? Are you sure you're not a plant from Fox News or something?

I said I was ashamed to be labeled with other atheists, I have no shame in being an atheist, just when people define atheists they look at the worst and will define me as the worst. Just how atheists view religious people only by looking at their worst and grouping them altogether as the worst.

Geez..even your strawmen have strawmen. That takes some skill.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:08 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, you mean you can't be arsed to search the internet? This shit isn't hard to find, hon. Additionally, you come in here trying to remove all this violent stigma and historically dangerous role of religion, but you haven't even read the holy books that you're adamantly defending? Nice.

To be fair, that wasn't exactly an unbiased site. There's nothing wrong with going to the source and making sure of the context. Our time isn't so valuable that we can't wait until tomorrow for him or her to do some research.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:46 pm)Celestine Wrote: Ha! A known falsehood! Yes religion should be kept out of public schools, that I can agree with you, but your government does a much better job at indoctrination than religion ever could hope to do! After all the government makes those textbooks and puts their own falsehoods that they present as truths in them. If only you knew how much of the things in your history books were false and not more than mere propaganda!

I can't... are you honestly this stupid? You blame the state government for the misinformation in the textbooks, but somehow, in some miracle of ignorance, manage to skip over the part where the government, in this instance, is filled with fundamentalist christians attempting to use their power to promote falsehoods in direct opposition to the law of the land?

Are you even thinking at all before you disagree?

Quote:In the Old Testament one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not kill, I don't ever remember reading anywhere Jesus telling to kill the unbelievers,

Jesus, in his own words, did not come to abolish the old laws, many of which detail the ways in which unbelievers are to be killed. Jesus also introduced the concept of hell, as a place where unbelievers go, and I humbly suggest that "you should be tortured for eternity for your beliefs," is a much, much more insulting statement than "your beliefs are stupid."

But since it's coming from religion, and you're a theist pretending to be atheist as though we can't see through it, you're blind to that. And if, on the off chance, you actually are an atheist, then your stance is entirely inconsistent and completely nonsensical, and you should feel bad.

Quote: and in Islam it only permits it when the people are attacking and killing Muslims or when another person unjustly kills another. At least from what I've read of the Quran so far.

All fifty pages of it, eh?

Quote:Perhaps if you wouldn't ill treat them so much they wouldn't say you need to be killed?

So in the previous paragraph you said there wasn't any biblical orders to kill atheists, and then in the next you say we deserve it? Contradiction!

Was there much atheism of any sort back when the old testament was written? Because, you know, there would need to be, for your statement here to make any kind of sense chronologically...

Incidentally, are you suggesting that threats of violence are an appropriate response to insults?

Quote: I think you fail to understand how much some atheists insult religion and the followers of religion. Granted I am not condemning religion, I have no reason to.

You have exactly the same reason as your purported reason for condemning atheism. Insults abound on both sides, only the theists are the only ones calling for violence, so it's literally worse on their end. To come here and pretend we're doing anything much at all is pure hypocrisy.

Quote: I know what ails the world and it is not religion, I am seeking to guide you on the right path for you to find out the true source of suffering. I could tell you, I could give you all the evidence in the world, I've tried it many times before. Like religious people many atheists have faith, faith in their dominions, and no matter how much evidence I presented to them they would not believe. They... all of them... rejected the evidence like creationists reject evolution, the atheists I debated with held on to their faith.

More poisoning the well. For a supposed atheist you sure do take a lot of pages from the creationist playbook. Hey, next tell us that science is just a theory!

Quote:I know now that I can not simply tell people, for they would never believe me. It tore me asunder to know that atheists whom I long believed were intellectual rational beings were just like the followers of religion whom I had been 'fighting' against for so long. Now I only have one mission in life, to promote peace and equality among the many clans of humanity, and to end the corruption that is rife in the dominions. To do that I need to learn how to change you, how to make you look at the REAL problem.

Don't you think it's a bit simplistic to say that there's only one problem?

Oh right, this is just about being a deep cover theist, not about actually saying anything cogent. I forgot for a second.

(September 15, 2014 at 4:36 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(September 15, 2014 at 3:08 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Wait, you mean you can't be arsed to search the internet? This shit isn't hard to find, hon. Additionally, you come in here trying to remove all this violent stigma and historically dangerous role of religion, but you haven't even read the holy books that you're adamantly defending? Nice.

To be fair, that wasn't exactly an unbiased site. There's nothing wrong with going to the source and making sure of the context. Our time isn't so valuable that we can't wait until tomorrow for him or her to do some research.

True, but then he/she shouldn't make the claims that Islam does or doesn't teach certain things. Especially when he/she apparently "forgot" about how shitty the OT was.