There could be a guy in heaven right now whom actually tortured jebus to death 2000 years ago to atone for said guys sins.

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: What if perfection is in the imperfection? What if imperfection was the deliberate design?

Reality is, it's what we have to deal with.

But then what was the part about "elevated nature" about? I see perfection enough in nature as we find it. But then, what is there to be elevated? In what direction would elevation lie?

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 8:11 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: A perfect Carpenter, by definition, doesn't build a crooked cabinet. The fact that God allegedly made imperfect man is evidence of this putative god's iperfection at the very least.

What if perfection is in the imperfection? What if imperfection was the deliberate design?

Reality is, it's what we have to deal with.

We both know that's not so. Christianity does not teach that. If it were the case, then the NT would cease to be ''necessary.'' It is unnecessary in my world, but in a Christian's world, it's necessary to make sense of the ''fall of mankind'' from the OT.

Reality isn't what you say it is, it just is.

Deride: God didn't get mad. God got nice and offered you a gift. Your choice entirely where you accept it or not. People go on about how it's liberating to appreciate reality in all its glory, yet here you are unhappy with it.

God isn't saying that you'll suffer if you reject his gift. He's saying: here's a way to benefit. If you reject it nothing changes. Only you don't get the changes.

And before literal mistranslation of genesis there was the correct interpretation where it was understood that the authors weren't trying to describe something they knew not about. Fact.

The word of God didn't change, and doesn't need to change to be understood in our context. I'm a literalist. I believe that the literal and most accurate translation states nothing about cosmology, just as it was understood originally.

You're not a horrible person according to my faith. You're a person not realising their potential. God will always forgive you. That isn't in question. The question is, will you accept forgiveness.

By accepting forgiveness, you mean accepting the religion Christianity?

Or can she be an Atheist and believe if a God truly exists, he would forgive her? Why wouldn't the latter count if it doesn't?

(September 28, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 11:57 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You just enjoy the hunt right?

I've tried to address it. It's too absurd. I can't think of it in moral terms because I can't link it. We're conditioned to think of any killing as immoral. I have more of a problem with killing animals that I do with this scenario. Is that an answer?

It is an answer, yes. Do you think that others find it so difficult to link this, that others would have more of a problem with killing a mollusk than they would with killing Bruce over their parking tickets? How could you even have a problem with killing a mollusk (or a cow, or a pig, or a sheep, or a dog..or..well...anything) if killing Bruce is a relative non-issue....upon what grounds could you make such a determination?

What could possibly have led to such a difficult scenario for you? Is this a position you've taken as a troll, fully aware that you cannot proceed to defend vicarious redemption beyond this point, or are these your earnest thoughts on the matter?
(clearly I'm flabbergasted...even I had a higher opinion of you than this statement would warrant, it's very difficult for me to accept, you understand? Ultimately opinions are like assholes....but this would be a terminus of discussion, obviously.....)

Enough with the slurs already R. It's tedious.

Animals: it's unethical to cause suffering to a sentient animal. That's straight from Peter Stringer. Can we agree on that as a base?

Am I killing Bruce now? I thought he was doing that for me without asking. Bruce dying is a non issue to me because I fail to see the connection _to_ me. My only moral stance could be that it's immoral to take your own life. So I might have a problem with his moral decisions. Myself I have no connection though. Intellectually I'm not connected. I'm not responsible for the idiocy of others.

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(September 28, 2014 at 2:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: By accepting forgiveness, you mean accepting the religion Christianity?

Or can she be an Atheist and believe if a God truly exists, he would forgive her? Why wouldn't the latter count if it doesn't?

I didn't mean that, no. My frame of reference is Christian redemption through sacrifice. I know of no other parallel solution. The lack of forgiveness is an all encompassing state to include all humans without it. How wide that catch net spreads I have no idea.

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(September 28, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: The problem I often find with these topics, is that theists don't address the actual remarks of the atheists they are debating. The "rebuttals" are typically in believer-ese. "You send yourself to hell, God doesn't." On and on it goes.

An atheist brings up facts. Theists offer rebuttals back using religion. Unfortunately fr0d0, you do this a lot. You don't address the uncomfortable facts, you just offer faith based statements.

But faith isn't about objective truth, so your opinion is all you have. I'm not judging you, but your beliefs are not provable. (the Bible isn't proof)

I'm trying very hard, as I usually do, to speak in everyday language avoiding clichés and Christian speak. I hate those, as I think it's very hard to understand for anyone. Mr included, from my atheist background. Bible speak is not really in my vocabulary. Rhythm here is the one using the big words. In asking for real examples in the real world, and offering answers in the same vein. I've challenged simple example with logic. As rationally as I can. If you can find logical fault, then I'd love to hear it. Your post in particular is full of Christian rhetoric.

(September 28, 2014 at 2:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Deride: God didn't get mad. God got nice and offered you a gift. Your choice entirely where you accept it or not. People go on about how it's liberating to appreciate reality in all its glory, yet here you are unhappy with it.

God isn't saying that you'll suffer if you reject his gift. He's saying: here's a way to benefit. If you reject it nothing changes. Only you don't get the changes.

And before literal mistranslation of genesis there was the correct interpretation where it was understood that the authors weren't trying to describe something they knew not about. Fact.

The word of God didn't change, and doesn't need to change to be understood in our context. I'm a literalist. I believe that the literal and most accurate translation states nothing about cosmology, just as it was understood originally.

You're not a horrible person according to my faith. You're a person not realising their potential. God will always forgive you. That isn't in question. The question is, will you accept forgiveness.

Thanks for this, fr0d0. This kind of reply, is easier to dialogue with. :=)

So I have two questions, then:

1) What do you mean by literal mistranslation of Genesis?
2) What am I being forgiven for?

(September 28, 2014 at 12:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -but I don't make excuses for that behavior, and here we have 20 some odd pages of excuses........masquerading as piety.....

The bait is measly. Mate, I'm trying my best to understand what the hell you're on about. I'm hoping there's some meat at the end of this.

(September 28, 2014 at 2:45 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I didn't mean that, no. My frame of reference is Christian redemption through sacrifice. I know of no other parallel solution. The lack of forgiveness is an all encompassing state to include all humans without it. How wide that catch net spreads I have no idea.

Why not redeem yourself by regretting evil done and doing your best to be a good human being? Why does a sacrifice of which only Christianity talks about is needed? Since the sacrifice is done...can't she just believe God would forgive her in his own way IF he exists. Isn't that more reasonable for a human being to do then say he can only forgive if he sacrifices a life for our sins?

If she accepts God's forgiveness but doesn't believe in him, why won't the sacrifice encompass her? The problem for her to accept a sacrifice she would have to believe in a subjective moral view, that sins can only be forgiven through that means, and she would have to accept a religion to go a long with that. Why is she being forced to accept a religion?

If it is as you say, God wants to forgive her and all she has to do is accept forgiveness, why can't God forgive her if she remains Atheist and wants to be forgiven in the chance that God does exist. Why is it necessary for her to accept a religious dogma for her to be forgiven.

(September 28, 2014 at 2:27 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: What if perfection is in the imperfection? What if imperfection was the deliberate design?

Reality is, it's what we have to deal with.

We both know that's not so. Christianity does not teach that. If it were the case, then the NT would cease to be ''necessary.'' It is unnecessary in my world, but in a Christian's world, it's necessary to make sense of the ''fall of mankind'' from the OT.

Reality isn't what you say it is, it just is.

You guys seem hung up on thinking I'm literally citing Christian doctrine here. I'm merely throwing out thoughts for consideration to help clarify our position. Yours and mine.