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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 3:31 am
(June 25, 2010 at 10:55 pm)superstarr Wrote: "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
The "Idea" of him having a plan is odd. Why? Because basically the idea of having any plan makes a little something called "prayer" become useless. I think contradictory wasn't a good word to use, but the idea of having a plan clearly makes prayer useless waste of time. Yet, people state that his plan and prayer are part of christianity, but they can see that it doesn't work. Rather, none of them have to be right because each make the other impossible. The problem in your reasoning starts at a deeper level still. If you say that you know god and his plan, it means that you have direct access to his thinking, intentions and that you can verify his sincerity about them. That kind of access to other minds is unprecedented in human interaction, yet you claim it for your alleged human-god interaction. Your claim boils down to the assertion that you have access to first-person experience of your god. Furthermore your claim is expanding along the way, you know he is almighty, can probe our minds, knows what's going to happen, has installed a magical box in us that's labeled "free will" to somehow make us independent from him.
I honestly suggest that you rethink your position and start with the question what we can know for sure. If you find that you should allow for even the slightest possibility of doubt to creep in your story than that means that you need a mechanism to verify claims on another basis than the alleged divine revelation you are depending on right now.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 3:39 am
(June 25, 2010 at 4:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why do you all even care about Gods perfect plan, you do not believe in the claim that He exists, it can only be understood by those who believe in the God of creation. God's plan is perfect within His own will. His will is not meant to control people it is however ultimately to bring peace to His creation to rid it of the evil that sin brought into His creation. The freewill you all want to so easily dismiss was given to His entire creation of beings and in that freewill there came jealousy and then hatered and this lead to not obeying God thus sin and the evil it brings.
What we are trying to point out is that your god seems to have 'dropped the ball' so to speak and in australia that means you no longer rule you are a has been and are no longer relevant....go away!
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 3:47 am
(June 26, 2010 at 2:22 am)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Min isn't that what I said that God will let history run its course. That is part of His plan.
Quote:No that was not what God wanted for either the baby
How the hell do you know? You're the one who keeps insisting there is some secret plan? (You sound like Bush talking about Iraq!)
I think you are making this up as you go along, G/C. Not that you'd be the first.............
Min you must be losing it I never said there was a secret plan and I'm not making up anything. Hey I'm a baptist not a gnostic ha ha ha. What I've been saying is God does not have our lives planned out for us day by day as superstarr has been saying. I've been defending the right of freewill that all humans have and that prayer is a useful tool for christians.
Your the one that jumped in and said I was insisting God has a secret plan. I'm saying that Gods plan to redeem the world is not and never will be a secret. When I said that God's plan is going perfectly I was talking about His plan to redeem His creation. If God has a secret plan He's not let me in on it or anyone else that I know of. I do not know if you have read my statements to superstarr if you haven't then you should I believe that will clear things up. Why would I make things up I'm here to learn and making things up sure would be a fine way to destroy an opportunity to learn.
Shell B I do not know what contradiction you are referring to please explain.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 4:00 am
Quote:Min you must be losing it I never said there was a secret plan and I'm not making up anything.
You are the one who is insisting it is there. Basically, you claim that everything that happens is god's fucking plan which is an incredibly bullshit belief system. IF you're happy with it, be my guest but please don't think you are making any impression with this nonsense!
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 4:22 am
(June 26, 2010 at 4:00 am)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Min you must be losing it I never said there was a secret plan and I'm not making up anything.
You are the one who is insisting it is there. Basically, you claim that everything that happens is god's fucking plan which is an incredibly bullshit belief system. IF you're happy with it, be my guest but please don't think you are making any impression with this nonsense! Christianity just might be the mother of all conspiracy theories.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 4:40 am
(June 26, 2010 at 3:31 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: (June 25, 2010 at 10:55 pm)superstarr Wrote: "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
The "Idea" of him having a plan is odd. Why? Because basically the idea of having any plan makes a little something called "prayer" become useless. I think contradictory wasn't a good word to use, but the idea of having a plan clearly makes prayer useless waste of time. Yet, people state that his plan and prayer are part of christianity, but they can see that it doesn't work. Rather, none of them have to be right because each make the other impossible. The problem in your reasoning starts at a deeper level still. If you say that you know god and his plan, it means that you have direct access to his thinking, intentions and that you can verify his sincerity about them. That kind of access to other minds is unprecedented in human interaction, yet you claim it for your alleged human-god interaction. Your claim boils down to the assertion that you have access to first-person experience of your god. Furthermore your claim is expanding along the way, you know he is almighty, can probe our minds, knows what's going to happen, has installed a magical box in us that's labeled "free will" to somehow make us independent from him.
I honestly suggest that you rethink your position and start with the question what we can know for sure. If you find that you should allow for even the slightest possibility of doubt to creep in your story than that means that you need a mechanism to verify claims on another basis than the alleged divine revelation you are depending on right now.
I never said that I KNEW God's plan. What I meant, was that the IDEA of having any plan makes prayer useless because prayer involves asking God to change something, yet what would be the point of even asking for anything in prayer if your life is planned? I wasn't stating the power of "God" I was simply saying that IF he indeed had any plan, it would make other things illogical and meaningless to Christianity. There's nothing wrong to my position and I don't know what you don't get about my position. I'm saying that God's "plan" isn't real, and that having any idea of a plan screws up other parts of christianity, and the example I gave was prayer.
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 5:01 am
OK, sorry superstarr, I clearly screwed up here.
My post should have been addressed to Godschild.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 9:42 am
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2010 at 9:45 am by Shell B.)
GC, here is your contradiction. . .
(June 26, 2010 at 12:12 am)Godschild Wrote: God will let history run its course. That is part of His plan. Godschild Wrote:that was not what God wanted for either the baby or his killer that is the price we have to endure because of sin. It does not seem fair to me either but having sin and freewill in this world inevitably leads to great sorry and terrible horror.
You suggest (over and over again) that everything is part of god's plan. Then, you suggest that god did not want the baby to "pay the price for blah, blah, blah." (I'm paraphrasing here) If everything is part of his plan, how is it that something happened that he didn't want to happen? That's a contradiction. You should go back through your posts, there's a shit ton of them.
Oh, and it just tickles me pink when religious folk claim that they know what their omnipotent, absent god wants and does not want.
God wants me to go on vacation in Aruba for a year. You better get of my way. It's god's will.
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Min & Shell B I still do not understand why you believe that I said that God has everything planned. It makes no sense that I would think or say that because I believe so strongly in freewill. Also why would I make the statement that part of God's plan is to allow history to run its own course. Yes God has certain plans but one thing He does not do is interfer with a persons freewill. Read the Bible and you can see what God's plan (will) is for mankind, there are no hidden secrets, it's layed out plain as day. Geee's come on go back and read the original post by superstarr he's the one that made the statement that God controls ever aspect of a persons life and that it does no good to pray because God's planning can not be changed. I know that he was trying to get a rise out of the christians on this forum. I even challenged him to give me a Bible verse that proved his statement and the one he listed Psalm 139:16 had nothing to do with God planning a persons entire life. Now you show me where I have said that God has a persons life all planned out.
Shell B I still see no contradiction in the quotes you brought up. You need to do better than that.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: God's "perfect" Plan
June 26, 2010 at 7:22 pm
(This post was last modified: June 26, 2010 at 7:26 pm by Shell B.)
godschild Wrote:Shell B I still see no contradiction in the quotes you brought up. You need to do better than that.
You need to see better than that.
godschild Wrote:Also why would I make the statement that part of God's plan is to allow history to run its own course.
You can't be serious. You said that on the first page of this thread. Anyway, I can't answer that question for you. You said it. I can't possibly know your motive for saying it.
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