(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating.

I agree - in scapegoating the victim actually does bear the punishment. He doesn't go scot-free after three days.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it.

Typically, when we smell shit, we don't want to immerse ourselves in it to find out if it really is shit.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you.

That is something we do want - the entertainment value of seeing a "devout" Christian trip over himself cannot be quantified.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

And the point of reading about it would be...?

Quote:My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it.

Oh, 10 more pounds of bullshit in a five-pound bag.

Do try to remember that I was indoctrinated into your fucked up religion. I rejected it because it makes no sense on any level. If you want to fool yourself with the "woo" and listen to a bureaucracy of criminals that is your business. But don't try to pretend that you are the only one who understand this bullshit because you aren't boy.

Been there...done that....it's still a steaming turd.

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(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating.

Of course it does. If it didn't, you'd have nothing to feign superior knowledge about.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it.

My honest opinion - you don't have anything to bring to the table that we haven't seen a million times before, so you're having to resort to transparent excuses.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you.

You don't really get it that the word of a priest is no more authoritative than that of anyone else. Either you can substantiate your position or you can't; don't put the blame on us.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

I suggest reading about actual archaeology and history and how many places and people they have found that are written about in The da Vinci Code. Not stating it as true; just sharing.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating.

Not really, except as Genkaus mentioned that jesus got off scot free after 3 days. eitherway you do the crime you do the time, not have someone do it for you.

Quote: My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it. You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you. I'm not pointing fingers or insulting anyone. It's just an observation

Speak for yourself, it was reading the bible and having devout christians explain it that made me a atheist. You see the bible is full absurd shit that contradicts itself and apologetic arguments, for example god directly commandeering people's freewill in the OT. Having devout christians explain it too you just makes it worse because it seems like no 2 of them can agree on what the damn book says.

Quote:Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

I agree that Israeli archeology is a fascinating subject. So far it has told us that the isrealites were not slaves in Egypt, that most of the site mention in exodus were actually unoccupied at the supposed time of the exodus and that the Israelites never conquered the land of Canaan in a blood bath. Even better the archeologists have actually been able to reconstruct the canaan pantheon using various sources, and it turns out that Elohim is the Zeus of this pantheon. The hebrew text of Genesis uses the name Elohim for god.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating. My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it. You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you. I'm not pointing fingers or insulting anyone. It's just an observation

Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

Excuse me; who are you to tell us what we want to immerse ourselves in? Most of us came to atheism because we immersed ourselves into our various religions and found them to be utter bullshit. That's not an observation, rather it's wishful thinking on your part. Just sharing.

(October 11, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Retrolord Wrote: Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating. My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it. You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you. I'm not pointing fingers or insulting anyone. It's just an observation

Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

biblical archeology? Many, many more misses than hits.

It's also a little patronising to say that we don't want a true Christian (such as yourself, no doubt) to explain it to us.

To be quite honest when a Christian explains the bible to us it tends to be from their perspective as a believer and not someone impartial. I tend to find people who don't believe in the 'truth' of the bible to be the best people at evaluating that truth. And I'm not talking about faith, I'm talking about historical accuracy and the truth behind the claims (which is all the bible is).

(October 9, 2014 at 9:59 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Just say "I believe because of special pleading."

I decided to take this challenge very seriously and get down to the real reason that I'm a christian. That's why it's taken me a couple days to get back. When I really examined the reasons I've put forth, I realize that none of them were reasons that I first came to believe in God and Jesus. I was raised in a strong catholic family and went to catholic school from 1st through 8th grade and continued in catholic education classes through high school. I was thoroughly indoctrinated into the catholic faith and I accepted it all. When I left home for military, my free time quickly became filled with getting drunk or high and chasing women. Even then, on Sunday mornings I'd crawl out of whatever bed I had ended up in, with a hangover, and head to the base chapel and go to mass. Eventually, I ended up meeting some christian friends and that's when I became a real christian and changed my lifestyle.

I didn't know the bible well at all when I decided to really follow Jesus, but I saw the way these guys lived and looked at life, and I wanted that. So I wanted the peace of mind that came with it, and I'll also admit that I had a fear of going to hell. It's been over 20 years since those days, and I've never found a good reason to stop believing. I believe that if someone possesses the truth it will show in their life. I know christians, seiks, buddhists, agnostics and atheists, and, in general, the ones who most appear to be living lives of love and self-giving are the true christians. "No true scotsman" does apply here. It seems every church I've been in has some who are true christians and some who say they are, but really are not willing to commit to following Christ.

Special pleading does not apply to my belief. I'm not disregarding any evidence. The history of the christian faith as laid out in the bible impresses me. I know of no other religion that has developed over time and has been chronicled by so many different writers over so many centuries. The resurrection, which has been attested to by various writers, is a large part of my clinching arguments for christianity over other religions. I've always wondered why the Romans didn't make it a point to prove that he didn't rise. That would have greatly hindered the rise of christianity which they viewed as a threat to the empire. Also the great majority of historians agree that Jesus did exist. I haven't come across any evidence that would convince me that christianity is not true. It's real, and I see no reason to walk away from God. For what?

Anyway, that's my true answer to your challenge. No B.S.

(October 11, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Lek Wrote: I decided to take this challenge very seriously and get down to the real reason that I'm a christian. That's why it's taken me a couple days to get back. When I really examined the reasons I've put forth, I realize that none of them were reasons that I first came to believe in God and Jesus. I was raised in a strong catholic family and went to catholic school from 1st through 8th grade and continued in catholic education classes through high school. I was thoroughly indoctrinated into the catholic faith and I accepted it all. When I left home for military, my free time quickly became filled with getting drunk or high and chasing women. Even then, on Sunday mornings I'd crawl out of whatever bed I had ended up in, with a hangover, and head to the base chapel and go to mass. Eventually, I ended up meeting some christian friends and that's when I became a real christian and changed my lifestyle.

I didn't know the bible well at all when I decided to really follow Jesus, but I saw the way these guys lived and looked at life, and I wanted that. So I wanted the peace of mind that came with it, and I'll also admit that I had a fear of going to hell. It's been over 20 years since those days, and I've never found a good reason to stop believing.

So, you were indoctrinated as a kid, you didn't follow your indoctrination completely for some time and when you were dissatisfied with that, you returned to your indoctrination. Okay.

(October 11, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Lek Wrote: I believe that if someone possesses the truth it will show in their life. I know christians, seiks, buddhists, agnostics and atheists, and, in general, the ones who most appear to be living lives of love and self-giving are the true christians. "No true scotsman" does apply here. It seems every church I've been in has some who are true christians and some who say they are, but really are not willing to commit to following Christ.

Did you just say that Sikhs, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists are all Christian? That's not a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, that's an "all true Scotsman" fallacy.

(October 11, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Lek Wrote: Special pleading does not apply to my belief. I'm not disregarding any evidence. The history of the christian faith as laid out in the bible impresses me. I know of no other religion that has developed over time and has been chronicled by so many different writers over so many centuries. The resurrection, which has been attested to by various writers and, is a large part of the clinching argument for christianity over other religions. I'v always wondered why the Romans didn't make it a point to prove that he didn't rise. That would have greatly hindered the rise of christianity which they viewed as a threat to the empire. Also the great majority of historians agree that Jesus did exist. I haven't come across any evidence that would convince me that christianity is not true. It's real, and I see no reason to walk away from God. For what?

Your views in here regarding your ignorance of other religions and misconceptions about your own show that you are disregarding evidence.

Archaeology seems to disprove the bible more than it proves it. Especially when we find out that the virgin birth story isn't unique, or original to the bible, and Yahweh used to be a lesser god in a pantheon.

Lek I won't doubt that your christian buddies may have led good lives. Hoever leading a good life has little to do with christianity. If you're taught to be a good constructive member of society, and things go well enough for you, you'll lead a good life regardless of religion. I'm sure you could name christians that leads good lives, and atheists or people of other faiths who lead bad lives, and i could do the reverse. The whole shtick about "I was getting drunk and sexing it up" is old and doesn't really mean anything except that you hit a low point and the people who helped you out just happened to be christian.

The history chronicled in the bible doesn't really fit the history of the people in the places the bible mentions. The Romans didn't have the burden of proof, so they probably didn't care too much. Especially since people didn't even start writing anything about Jesus until a decade or more after he died.

Quote:Okay so I was silently observing this thread for about a week now. The sacrifice of Jesus goes far beyond what you guys call scapegoating.

Yup.

Quote:My honest opinion- you don't want to immerse yourselves and find out more about it.

You seem to have got it backwards - many people become atheists because they have learned more about religion.

Quote:You don't really want a priest ( yeah now some will make paedophilia jokes) or devout christian to explain it to you.

I was raised in a Catholic family, went to Catholic school, was baptized and confirmed in the Church. I've had enough to do with priests. I've also had devout Christians of several different franchises throw bricks through my windows. So I suppose you're right - I don't want their explanations.

Quote:I'm not pointing fingers or insulting anyone. It's just an observation

Do us a favour, then; when you DO insult someone, let us know. Because this looks an awful lot like that.

Quote:Anyway I returned because I wanted to suggest reading about biblical archaeology and how many places and people they have found. Again, not stating its true. Just sharing

But any discoveries about people and places mentioned in the Bible aren't the point. We already know that Rome and Augustus and Herod existed - how do these physical realities confirm the creation, the virgin birth, the ascension, et c? Hint: they don't.

Boru