(October 21, 2014 at 10:24 pm)Christian Wrote: Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

Are they?

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 10:44 am)Jenny A Wrote:

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You might have guessed I'm not looking to be Mormon. . .

But how can you not see the problem here?

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If you use a method like A/S/K on any set of beliefs from mainline Christianity, to Mormonism, to Islam, to devil worship, chances are good, you will find what you are looking for. Since the things found are diametrically opposed, it seems to me that the seekers are not finding anything real. Certainly they can't all be finding the true god.

thats the thing though. A/S/K when broken down to it's core elements is a process used anytime we desperately are looking for something. It doesn't have to be religion specific. It is a process that God has written into our very dna. It is how we naturally go about filling need in our lives. God/Christ is telling us to seek out the Holy Spirit as we would anything else we need in life.

So we will find anything we are seeking if we look desperately enough? Well, if we seek internally, I agree with you. But I don't think we should base our lives or much of anything else on what we find that way, because it's merely a reflection of what we want, not what is. And if we start thinking that we have a monopoly on the truth based on what we find inside, we are in serious moral danger.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: My sister was being recruited and I supplied rebuttle for a year of all their best efforts.

Uh huh, and I can show you a hell of a lot of factual rebuttle of the Bible. So I share your frustration. --- ASK is a method prone to bad results. After all it leads to Bible based Christianity among other absurdities.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: because those people want to be Mormons... What the problem is? They have the right to justify their beliefs anyway they choose. Theirs is a religion based on community. Some people value community over God, for those who's God is based in community Mormonism is for them.
False religion serves a purpose. Not all are destined to be with God for eternity. This life was designed to sift wheat from chaff/sheep and goats. This happens while we are under our own steam, meaning it is the choices we make that seperates us from God. We have been given over to our hearts, and it is out hearts who informs our conscience selves and God whether we are sheep or goats, wheat or weed, wheat or chaff.
Mormonism and other false religion are all apart of that separating process.
Again, here if you wish to serve God one moves past Mormonism, if one wishes to serve and be apart of that specific religious community then your final destination a religion like Mormonism.
So here again A/S/K does indeed work because you are a/s/k'ing till you find what it is your heart wants, if it wants to serve God then it will keep asking and if it want to be apart of the Mormon community you will find what you have been looking for despite the Truth. That is why the 'truth test' works. Because those people value each other/community above and beyond senseable truth.

Ah, a little bit of predestination there huh? Those who want god will find him and those who really want something else will find something else? I'm not sure Mormons value community over god. They're pretty god oriented. They just reinforce belief with community. Who are you to say they weren't seeking god?

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: [quote='Jenny A' pid='778965' dateline='1413902697']
So how would an outsider know who to ask for?

because it is the job of people like me, woot, frodo, proffessor,GC to tell you.

As opposed to what the nice young men from the Mormon church tell me? There's nothing to choose between you. You're all your own special brand of crazy.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 10:44 am)Jenny A Wrote: Or if any of the gods sought exists at all? Certainly, ASK won't tell you, because it works on all the gods.

as it works on finding a mate, a job, the right shade of lip stick..

A lot of failed marriages and bad lipstick choice give you the lie there.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 10:44 am)Jenny A Wrote: ---- Except of course when it doesn't work and the seeker is told to go on knocking endlessly . . . .

You need to be prepared to spend the rest of your life looking for a God if your heart is hard, but if you are willing to follow God where ever He may lead your time seeking will be brief.

But we just noticed that we will find what we want to find, including, I imagine, directions to follow where we want to go.

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(October 21, 2014 at 10:24 pm)Christian Wrote: Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

Blind faith in what?

Or do you think it takes faith not to believe in god? Perhaps it takes faith not the believe in dragons, fairies, ghosts, or unicorns? It doesn't. Faith is believing in things with out evidence.

Not having a belief in things for which there is no evidence does not require faith. It doesn't require anything but the absence of faith.

(October 21, 2014 at 11:53 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(October 15, 2014 at 10:28 pm)Drich Wrote: are you a profit? Do you want to be? Die a marytar? Live and have nothing

Quote:Better than to die and be roasted eternally. If there is a God, it is welcome to make me a prophet with a lousy life if it will save me from the teeth gnashing agony.

theres a problem.. Prophets dedicated themselves to God FIRST, they set themselves apart from living as common man did, that is why they were poor. (No infrastructure/communal support)

Do this first then maybe you can be some wayward spirit's prophet

Quote:Same reason a Muslim stands with Allah.

muslims stand with Allah for reward own slaves in the afterlife. I stand to be a slave and serve the living God. So... No. Not the same reason.

(October 15, 2014 at 1:29 pm)Drich Wrote: What if.. Our/Christianity experience with God is not as empty as what you know?

Quote:What if the universe and all we know of it, including our memories, was just created in a highly advanced video game two minutes ago? You can 'what if' anything. It's not an argument, it's displaying your imagination.

actually I can 'what if' as a way to create perspective. You guys all think on a single level as if your tied to train tracks. You believe all who experience life can only do so on or near the level that you yourselves have experienced it. Therefore are forced to reason the same conclusions, otherwise be labeled delusional.. What if.. Puts those willing to think off the track for a moment in a position to maybe understand that life offers so much more than the emptiness that has placed you in your dark corner.
It allows those seeking perspective the reasoning to understand why I and others like me are not another freight car lined up behind a Dawkins or a Mayr.

Quote:And citing Luke 11 (which says nothing about never giving up A/S/King, btw)

It does have one perservere when one encounters opposition, and most importantly has one persist till he gets what it is his heart desires... Btw.

Quote: from the Bible presumes the Bible is a reliable source of information. Proving the Bible is step one, but you're assuming it.

your presuming I have presumed. This is an inaccurate presumption.

Quote:This recipe doesn't say anything about following it over and over for years until you get the answer you're seeking, or any indication that you have to A/S/K more than once or that it could be a very long time between the A/S/King and the answering. You made all that up, because it just doesn't work very well as written.

it does clearly state and illustrates that the asker does indeed follow through till the goal has been met. If you like and can cut and paste book chapter and verse...

Time here is irrelevant. It is about obtaining the end goal, not placing time constraints.

Quote:Yes. I just didn't follow the made-up version you claim is what is really meant in Luke.

of course you quit before you got the bread you were asking and seeking about.. Now may I ask does the neighbor in the story quit before he got his bread? Do you see the descrepency between how the man in the parable acted verses how you acted?

Quote:The great commission implies that God wants his salesmen to recruit as many followers as possible. You seem to be trying to follow that commission. If you or God doesn't want us on board, how about not pestering us?

maybe you need to identify this great commission because you seem to be confused about its meaning.

Quote:Never heard of the Hindu gods who incarnate as humans to interact with regular people, huh?

if your speaking to the 10 incarnations of vishnue none of them established a direct relationship with man.

Quote:Because it would take an extremely rudimentary knowledge of other religions to be aware of that, and ignorance is the main arrow in your quiver. If you meet God's criteria, I can't say they're very exacting.

out side of vishnue's ten incarnations I had to do a search do you know what I found??? A list of avatars
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar

In this list the vast majority are man animal hybrids, the avatars they take of man are in the form of sages/prophets to put man back on track. I spent over an hour looking from site to site and not one instance did the hindu God use their power to establish and maintain the type of relationship Jesus Christ did though attonement.

Quote:Apparently he doesn't care in the slightest if the things you say are true or not, and neither do you.

oh, the irony. I post links to 90% of everything I say, most of which is backed in secular web sites except when speaking on a religious specific topic.

I'm calling Bs here sport, you need to provide evidence that one of the hundreds of The Hindu gods, or one of their thousands of manifestations strove have a personal relationship with the men that he/she/it has created. As the God of the bible has.
(Because THAT is what is being discussed)
Not the fact that hindu God take the form of man to put them back on track, trick man, or slay him. Or in your ten min Google search did you not gather that when forming your rebuttal?

Sorry chief your going to have to work for this one.

Quote:If it's real and is going to torture me eternally if I don't, yes. If it's not real, it would be stupid to serve it.

what if your time in hell was limited? What if he'll fire burned so hot the thin fabric of your mind would be consumed by it, and what makes you, you just burns [/code]up after a few hundred years?

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(October 21, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='728323' dateline='1407784735']no where in the bible does it say God is an Omni max God.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-27948-po...#pid728323

You don't even know what the Bible says about your god. You cannot even explain what you profess to believe.


Do you have book chapter and verse that says God is an Omni max God?

No, you don't. Because that is a construct of the church and not of scripture.

That said it looks like you are the one who does not understand what the bible says about God huh?

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(October 21, 2014 at 10:21 pm)Stimbo Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='779318' dateline='1413942683']you guys love to talk circumstance and avoid detail like the plague.

Generalise much?

Only when it specifically applies.

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(October 21, 2014 at 10:24 pm)Christian Wrote: Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

I know many of the. Will take objection to this statement, but a safer truth could not be told. Many of them believe what they do blindly, where as if they took 1/2 of this blind faith and placed it in God, they would have a relationship with God stronger than the Apstoles had.

(October 21, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 10:24 pm)Christian Wrote: Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

I know many of the. Will take objection to this statement, but a safer truth could not be told. Many of them believe what they do blindly, where as if they took 1/2 of this blind faith and placed it in God, they would have a relationship with God stronger than the Apstoles had.

What you guys continually fail to recognize is that god is a non-issue for atheists. We don't have blind faith that gods do not exist. Most of us just have no interest in the question. It is nonsense on the face of it. If there was any reason to think otherwise, you proponents of god belief seem incapable of making the case.

Believe whatever what you like. Just don't make the mistake of believing there is any reason that would persuade a neutral observer. All you have is your enthusiasm for your cause. Please note how little weight that carries here.

Quote:I know many of the. Will take objection to this statement, but a safer truth could not be told.

You two fuckheads have nothing but pious platitudes to back up your fairy tales.

Evidence, drippy. Real evidence. Then you can open your fucking mouth.


Meanwhile. Fuck you and your god.

(October 22, 2014 at 2:31 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I know many of the. Will take objection to this statement, but a safer truth could not be told.

You two fuckheads have nothing but pious platitudes to back up your fairy tales.

Evidence, drippy. Real evidence. Then you can open your fucking mouth.


Meanwhile. Fuck you and your god.

What does real unarguable evidence look like Minnie?

God should know that Drich. We're waiting.

(October 22, 2014 at 1:45 am)whateverist Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 11:16 pm)Drich Wrote: I know many of the. Will take objection to this statement, but a safer truth could not be told. Many of them believe what they do blindly, where as if they took 1/2 of this blind faith and placed it in God, they would have a relationship with God stronger than the Apstoles had.

What you guys continually fail to recognize is that god is a non-issue for atheists. We don't have blind faith that gods do not exist. Most of us just have no interest in the question. It is nonsense on the face of it. If there was any reason to think otherwise, you proponents of god belief seem incapable of making the case.

Believe whatever what you like. Just don't make the mistake of believing there is any reason that would persuade a neutral observer. All you have is your enthusiasm for your cause. Please note how little weight that carries here.

See you, like most atheist automatically assume that just because we have expended a measure of faith to reach out to God to establish a relationship, that atheist inturn expend a measure of faith to disbelieve God. This is not the case. When I say atheist are men of blind faith, I am not speaking to the expenditure of faith concerning God. I am speaking of faith in facts that subsequently replaces God. Faith that the facts are correct, faith that the interpretation of facts are correct, and the big one faith that somehow 'science' and God can not coexist.

The primary problem most of you have is that you hold on to a medieval world view concerning religion and God. That God must remain unexplained. That God must remain a mystery. That the knoweledge of the world around us does not further point to God but some how disproves Him..

My question is why? What in the bible says this? If one were to give himself over to a little knocking he would discover that nothing in scripture says we can't know God through the natural world. Matter of fact the opposite is true. That for the unbeliever it is the natural world that is the only evidence of God you have been given over to.

I wonder why that evidence has been taken from you.

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(October 22, 2014 at 7:17 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: God should know that Drich. We're waiting.

It's a game Minnie and I play. (He doesn't know, he just likes to ask and posture) so when he's done I get to post the emoticon of the old guy shaking his fist.

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(October 21, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: So we will find anything we are seeking if we look desperately enough? Well, if we seek internally, I agree with you.

if we seek desperately enought we will find anything we set out to find. 'Science' has proven this over and over again.

Quote: But I don't think we should base our lives or much of anything else on what we find that way, because it's merely a reflection of what we want, not what is. And if we start thinking that we have a monopoly on the truth based on what we find inside, we are in serious moral danger.

who says we aren't already there? Look at abortion take away the clinical terms and look at what is left. It is soceity allowing the destruction of unwanted babies... We justify this because we sought out clinical terms that we use to disassociate ourselves and dehumanize the victims so we can justify what we are actually doing.

The next is gay marriage. Soceity has taken the first covenant God made between man woman and Himself and united this holy act with an act deemed sinful in scripture. If gay people wanted to have the same right why not settle for the civil or state sanctioned Union? Why does soceity insist on taking the ceremony of marriage from the church and mock it's very core meanings?

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: My sister was being recruited and I supplied rebuttle for a year of all their best efforts.

Quote:Uh huh, and I can show you a hell of a lot of factual rebuttle of the Bible. So I share your frustration. --- ASK is a method prone to bad results. After all it leads to Bible based Christianity among other absurdities.

....and it leads to successful business, marriages, children, health, wealth, scientific discovery technological break throughs and any and everything else that can be difficult to obtain from the dawn of man.
Again ASK is not unique to the bible or God. It is simple how man goes about obtaining what he really wants that is not easily found. Why else did jesus frame this in a parable that we could relate to? Look at the setting again the neighbor wanted a basic need. That was to feed his guests. What did he do to feed his guests? He ASK'ed for bread. Why? Because this is our goto when we desperately want something not easily obtainable. All jesus is saying here is put forth the same effort as you would anything else that might be difficult at first to get.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: because those people want to be Mormons... What the problem is? They have the right to justify their beliefs anyway they choose. Theirs is a religion based on community. Some people value community over God, for those who's God is based in community Mormonism is for them.
False religion serves a purpose. Not all are destined to be with God for eternity. This life was designed to sift wheat from chaff/sheep and goats. This happens while we are under our own steam, meaning it is the choices we make that seperates us from God. We have been given over to our hearts, and it is out hearts who informs our conscience selves and God whether we are sheep or goats, wheat or weed, wheat or chaff.
Mormonism and other false religion are all apart of that separating process.
Again, here if you wish to serve God one moves past Mormonism, if one wishes to serve and be apart of that specific religious community then your final destination a religion like Mormonism.
So here again A/S/K does indeed work because you are a/s/k'ing till you find what it is your heart wants, if it wants to serve God then it will keep asking and if it want to be apart of the Mormon community you will find what you have been looking for despite the Truth. That is why the 'truth test' works. Because those people value each other/community above and beyond senseable truth.

Quote:Ah, a little bit of predestination there huh?

that the thing with biblical christianity. If it is in the bible we must teach it and reconcile it with our picture of God.

Quote:Those who want god will find him and those who really want something else will find something else? I'm not sure Mormons value community over god.

then why do they ignore the truth to maintain the validly of the Mormon community by up holding and passing along the tenements of the Mormon faith? Yes with out a dout the Mormon faith is god driven, but the religion comes first to the exclusion of all else.

Quote: They're pretty god oriented. They just reinforce belief with community. Who are you to say they weren't seeking god?

they are not seeking the God of the bible for sure. The God of the bible has only one son his name is Jesus. The Mormon God has many sons and one of them happens to be named Jesus.

I don't make that distinction, they do.

Quote:As opposed to what the nice young men from the Mormon church tell me? There's nothing to choose between you. You're all your own special brand of crazy.

again if you are looking to buy what the Mormons are selling then buy it from them because you will not find it with me.

They sell what most white breads think of when they think Of God, it again is just not the God of the bible.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: as it works on finding a mate, a job, the right shade of lip stick..

Quote:A lot of failed marriages and bad lipstick choice give you the lie there.

But in order for your marriage to have failed you actually had to be married did you not? Again ASK only gives you what you are looking for. It does not ensure what you are looking for is what is best for you. It is just a method of acquisition that we all use. Jesus said if we use this neutral form of acquisition and apply it to God, the Father will send the Holy Spirit. For those who truly seek the God of the bible there is nothing more that we need.

(October 21, 2014 at 9:51 pm)Drich Wrote: You need to be prepared to spend the rest of your life looking for a God if your heart is hard, but if you are willing to follow God where ever He may lead your time seeking will be brief.

Quote:But we just noticed that we will find what we want to find, including, I imagine, directions to follow where we want to go.

ffor some yes, for those seeking the God of the bible they will find what God has promised, if they remain faithful to the process and build an accurate picture of Him.
[/code]

(October 22, 2014 at 7:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(October 21, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: So we will find anything we are seeking if we look desperately enough? Well, if we seek internally, I agree with you.

if we seek desperately enought we will find anything we set out to find. 'Science' has proven this over and over again.

And that is why A/S/K cannot be a reliable method.
I'm glad you said it yourself. At least, you seem to be aware of the pitfalls of such methodology.

Wait...is Drich seriously crediting his A/S/K "method" with the scientific advances we've experienced since the dawn of man?

Quote:and it leads to successful business, marriages, children, health, wealth, scientific discovery technological break throughs and any and everything else that can be difficult to obtain from the dawn of man

(bolding mine)

Drich..if that's how you think science works..... That's not how science works. Especially considering religion has been historically hostile to science and naturalist explanations.