Gen.
I wish you do a bit more researches before you come down with your judgements.
A rudimental or simple mortar was uses by the Egyptian (as far as we know) 4000 years ago for the first time.
After that the Roman developed a bit more sophisticate type of mortar and these days we got even more sophisticate types of mortar and cement that allow the construction of toll buildings.
Before that time people had to build with mud and straws which they turned into some sort of bricks but these bricks have little to do with the modern bricks which last for ages and ages.
From this simple facts it is obvious that in Varanasi the researchers couldn't find much evidence of buildings dating earlier than 4000 years as these mud&straws construction could not last so long.
But again if you can find some sort of evidence that prove that before 4000 years ago in that area people had knowledge of mortar&cement i will be happy to hear.

(October 28, 2014 at 8:19 am)Riketto Wrote: Before that time people had to build with mud and straws which they turned into some sort of bricks but these bricks have little to do with the modern bricks which last for ages and ages.
From this simple facts it is obvious that in Varanasi the researchers couldn't find much evidence of buildings dating earlier than 4000 years as these mud&straws construction could not last so long.

Quote:The earliest settlement at Mehrgarh, in the northeast corner of the 495-acre (2.00 km2) site, was a small farming village that has been dated to between 6500 BCE to 5500 BCE. ... Early Mehrgarh residents lived in mud brick houses...

Wikipedia | Mehrgarh

Right as usual, Riketto.

Besides, which side are you arguing. Are you actually trying to convince us of why you don't have evidence that Yoga is 7,000 years old? We already accept that you don't.

(October 28, 2014 at 8:19 am)Riketto Wrote: Gen.
I wish you do a bit more researches before you come down with your judgements.
A rudimental or simple mortar was uses by the Egyptian (as far as we know) 4000 years ago for the first time.
After that the Roman developed a bit more sophisticate type of mortar and these days we got even more sophisticate types of mortar and cement that allow the construction of toll buildings.
Before that time people had to build with mud and straws which they turned into some sort of bricks but these bricks have little to do with the modern bricks which last for ages and ages.
From this simple facts it is obvious that in Varanasi the researchers couldn't find much evidence of buildings dating earlier than 4000 years as these mud&straws construction could not last so long.
But again if you can find some sort of evidence that prove that before 4000 years ago in that area people had knowledge of mortar&cement i will be happy to hear.

There you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohenjo-dar...excavation

Quote:Mohenjo-daro has a planned layout based on a street grid of rectilinear buildings. Most were built of fired and mortared brick; some incorporated sun-dried mud-brick and wooden superstructures.

The city was built over 4500 years ago, it did not use "mud and straws" as you suggest and it left plenty of evidence of its existence. Besides architecture, there are a ton of other artifacts which also provide

Clearly, it is possible for a settlement older than 4000 years to leave massive amounts of evidence for its existence. If your hypothetical yoga-practicing, shiva-worshiping, older than 4000 years settlement had existed at Varanasi, then we'd have seen architectural evidence (buildings made of wood and stone), artifacts (stone or metal statues), farm tools, weaponry, domesticated animal bones, well - atleast some evidence of that settlement. There is none.

(October 28, 2014 at 11:48 am)genkaus Wrote:

(October 28, 2014 at 8:19 am)Riketto Wrote: Gen.
I wish you do a bit more researches before you come down with your judgements.
A rudimental or simple mortar was uses by the Egyptian (as far as we know) 4000 years ago for the first time.
After that the Roman developed a bit more sophisticate type of mortar and these days we got even more sophisticate types of mortar and cement that allow the construction of toll buildings.
Before that time people had to build with mud and straws which they turned into some sort of bricks but these bricks have little to do with the modern bricks which last for ages and ages.
From this simple facts it is obvious that in Varanasi the researchers couldn't find much evidence of buildings dating earlier than 4000 years as these mud&straws construction could not last so long.
But again if you can find some sort of evidence that prove that before 4000 years ago in that area people had knowledge of mortar&cement i will be happy to hear.

There you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohenjo-dar...excavation

Quote:Mohenjo-daro has a planned layout based on a street grid of rectilinear buildings. Most were built of fired and mortared brick; some incorporated sun-dried mud-brick and wooden superstructures.

The city was built over 4500 years ago, it did not use "mud and straws" as you suggest and it left plenty of evidence of its existence. Besides architecture, there are a ton of other artifacts which also provide

Clearly, it is possible for a settlement older than 4000 years to leave massive amounts of evidence for its existence. If your hypothetical yoga-practicing, shiva-worshiping, older than 4000 years settlement had existed at Varanasi, then we'd have seen architectural evidence (buildings made of wood and stone), artifacts (stone or metal statues), farm tools, weaponry, domesticated animal bones, well - atleast some evidence of that settlement. There is none.

It seems that you are running a bit too fast with your fantasy.
Where you got the idea that what was used 2000 km. away was also used in Varanasi.
4500 years ago they didn't have internet, trains, buses, cars or other way to communicate except moving by donkeys.
2000 km. in those times would translate like going further than the moon these days.
The knowledge to make mortared brick was not available in eastern India otherwise there would be evidence in other places around Varanasi.
So keep on searching Gen that maybe one day you may come up with better results.
By the way your statement that in Mohenjo-daro mud bricks were not used in incorrect.
As you can read in the article it say that ...........Most were built of fired and mortared brick; some incorporated sun-dried mud-brick and wooden superstructures.
.....how did you work out that the mud bricks were just mud without straws?
Here some more evidence.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-hist...discovered

(October 29, 2014 at 5:02 am)Riketto Wrote: It seems that you are running a bit too fast with your fantasy.
Where you got the idea that what was used 2000 km. away was also used in Varanasi.

It wasn't used in Varanasi - because there was no Varanasi around at that time. Varanasi co-existing with Mohenjo Daro is your fantasy, not mine.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:02 am)Riketto Wrote: The knowledge to make mortared brick was not available in eastern India otherwise there would be evidence in other places around Varanasi.

And if there were any people living near Varanasi then, you'd find all sorts of other artifacts, as you to with contemporary settlements - there is none to be found.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:02 am)Riketto Wrote: By the way your statement that in Mohenjo-daro mud bricks were not used in incorrect.
As you can read in the article it say that ...........Most were built of fired and mortared brick; some incorporated sun-dried mud-brick and wooden superstructures.
.....how did you work out that the mud bricks were just mud without straws?

It probably did use straws - but that would just prove you more wrong. You keep repeating that "mud and straw" buildings couldn't last 4000 years and yet, here are buildings of Mohenjo Daro with mud and straw bricks that have lasted longer.

(October 29, 2014 at 5:02 am)Riketto Wrote: Here some more evidence.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-hist...discovered

Evidence of what, exactly? All this says is there were people around 7000 years ago who lived in caves and drew pictures of crocodiles. It says nothing about those people practicing yoga or worshiping Shiva or speaking Sanskrit.

(October 29, 2014 at 11:20 am)genkaus Wrote:

(October 29, 2014 at 5:02 am)Riketto Wrote: It seems that you are running a bit too fast with your fantasy.
Where you got the idea that what was used 2000 km. away was also used in Varanasi.

It wasn't used in Varanasi - because there was no Varanasi around at that time. Varanasi co-existing with Mohenjo Daro is your fantasy, not mine.

You have no evidence that Varanasi didn't exist in those times.
Over a billion of Hindus, Buddhist and yoga followers think the opposite.
Most of these people live around this culture which has been handed down from father to sun from the beginning of immemorial time.
One day few researcher pop up and say that Varanasi is not older than 4000 years.
Where did they searched?
Did they searched where the old city was located or some other place?
What instruments did they used?
What qualification have these researchers?
Did they searched under the present city or just above where the present construction stand?
As you can see there are a lot of ??? to answer before you can come up with certainties.

Quote:And if there were any people living near Varanasi then, you'd find all sorts of other artifacts, as you to with contemporary settlements - there is none to be found.

Where is your study that artifacts dating to that period haven't been found?
And if 7000 years ago people make artifacts how would you expect that they last until these days?

Quote:It probably did use straws - but that would just prove you more wrong. You keep repeating that "mud and straw" buildings couldn't last 4000 years and yet, here are buildings of Mohenjo Daro with mud and straw bricks that have lasted longer.

Again you are running too fast with your fantasy.
How do you know that in the ruin of Mohenjo Daro there are still mud&straws brick?
What about if the ruins are just what is left of only the fired and mortared bricks because the mud bricks have long gone?

Quote:Evidence of what, exactly? All this says is there were people around 7000 years ago who lived in caves and drew pictures of crocodiles. It says nothing about those people practicing yoga or worshiping Shiva or speaking Sanskrit.

See if you can dismiss this finding.

http://ramubangalore.blogspot.com.au/201...waram.html

(October 30, 2014 at 11:26 am)Riketto Wrote: You have no evidence that Varanasi didn't exist in those times.
Over a billion of Hindus, Buddhist and yoga followers think the opposite.
Most of these people live around this culture which has been handed down from father to sun from the beginning of immemorial time.
One day few researcher pop up and say that Varanasi is not older than 4000 years.
Where did they searched?
Did they searched where the old city was located or some other place?
What instruments did they used?
What qualification have these researchers?
Did they searched under the present city or just above where the present construction stand?
As you can see there are a lot of ??? to answer before you can come up with certainties.

Where did you get the nonsensical idea that that is what "over a billion Hindus, Buddhist etc" believe? Most of them don't have a belief regarding the age of Varansi. Others who've received an actual education in history and archeology don't believe your nonsense.

And you just need to look at the research articles you were pointed to to answer all of your questions.

(October 30, 2014 at 11:26 am)Riketto Wrote: Where is your study that artifacts dating to that period haven't been found?
And if 7000 years ago people make artifacts how would you expect that they last until these days?

The study dating the artifacts found in and near Varanasi. Go read it.
And artifacts older than 4000 years have been found in other places - so clearly they can last a very long time.

(October 30, 2014 at 11:26 am)Riketto Wrote: Again you are running too fast with your fantasy.
How do you know that in the ruin of Mohenjo Daro there are still mud&straws brick?
What about if the ruins are just what is left of only the fired and mortared bricks because the mud bricks have long gone?

If the mud bricks had been long gone, we wouldn't have found them. But we did find them. Again, go look at the study.

(October 30, 2014 at 11:26 am)Riketto Wrote: See if you can dismiss this finding.

http://ramubangalore.blogspot.com.au/201...waram.html

Quite easily.
First of all, its a blog post, not a finding.
It gives no references to any actual studies - just claims.
The ASI has not determined the temple to be 7000 years old - in fact, they are silent on the matter altogether.
I could not find any link to any actual study conducted by the "temple officials".

Due to the lack of any actual evidence provided by the link, the blog entry is summarily dismissed.

(October 30, 2014 at 1:44 pm)genkaus Wrote: Where did you get the nonsensical idea that that is what "over a billion Hindus, Buddhist etc" believe? Most of them don't have a belief regarding the age of Varansi. Others who've received an actual education in history and archeology don't believe your nonsense.
And you just need to look at the research articles you were pointed to to answer all of your questions.

According to the history Varanasi is the city of Shiva and both Hindu and Buddhist believe so whether you like it or not.
I do agree that there are many Hindu and Buddhists that this fact it is not a priority in their life as it wouldn't be a priority for a Christian to know whether Jesus lived here or there but again if you talk to most Hindus or Buddhist they know.

Quote:The study dating the artifacts found in and near Varanasi. Go read it.
And artifacts older than 4000 years have been found in other places - so clearly they can last a very long time.

What places?
And what artifacts?
Do they related to who?

Quote:If the mud bricks had been long gone, we wouldn't have found them. But we did find them. Again, go look at the study.

How would you know that these mud bricks related to 4500 years ago or were made long after?
Again you turn ??? into certainties.

(October 30, 2014 at 11:26 am)Riketto Wrote: See if you can dismiss this finding.

http://ramubangalore.blogspot.com.au/201...waram.html

Quote:Quite easily.
First of all, its a blog post, not a finding.
It gives no references to any actual studies - just claims.
The ASI has not determined the temple to be 7000 years old - in fact, they are silent on the matter altogether.
I could not find any link to any actual study conducted by the "temple officials".
Due to the lack of any actual evidence provided by the link, the blog entry is summarily dismissed.

You can dismiss anything in your fantasy but in reality the temple is still there and the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) officials by using carbon dating confirm that it is 7000 years old and is dedicated to Shiva so all your denial came to an abrupt end.
By the way if you don't like this blog just go on your search engine and write.............the underground temple of Malleswaram.
You will find countless reports about this temple.

(October 31, 2014 at 11:00 am)Riketto Wrote: According to the history Varanasi is the city of Shiva and both Hindu and Buddhist believe so whether you like it or not.
I do agree that there are many Hindu and Buddhists that this fact it is not a priority in their life as it wouldn't be a priority for a Christian to know whether Jesus lived here or there but again if you talk to most Hindus or Buddhist they know.

All of this is to say that many Hindus and Buddhists hold no opinion about the age of Varanasi - which is what you are trying to establish here. That they believe Varanasi to be a city of Shiva is irrelevant unless you simultaneously establish their beliefs about the period of Shiva's supposed existence. And even then, all you'd be able to say is that Hindus believe the city to be 7000 years old - that does not establish the actual age of the city.

(October 31, 2014 at 11:00 am)Riketto Wrote: What places?
And what artifacts?
Do they related to who?

Mohenjo Daro.
Seated and standing figures, copper and stone tools, carved seals, balance-scales and weights, gold and jasper jewellery, and children's toys
The last sentence does not make any sense.

(October 31, 2014 at 11:00 am)Riketto Wrote: How would you know that these mud bricks related to 4500 years ago or were made long after?
Again you turn ??? into certainties.

Because they've been dated to that period and that dating is consistent with all the other things discovered which give a clear idea about its period of occupation.

(October 31, 2014 at 11:00 am)Riketto Wrote: You can dismiss anything in your fantasy but in reality the temple is still there and the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) officials by using carbon dating confirm that it is 7000 years old and is dedicated to Shiva so all your denial came to an abrupt end.

That is a LIE. A bare-faced, sloppy LIE. The ASI website has detailed records of its excavations and undertakings and there is not a single mentions of that particular temple - let alone any mention of it being 7000 years old.

This is where you either put up or shut up. Either provide the study issued by the ASI dating the temple or stop lying through your teeth.

(October 31, 2014 at 11:00 am)Riketto Wrote: By the way if you don't like this blog just go on your search engine and write.............the underground temple of Malleswaram.
You will find countless reports about this temple.

That's the first thing I did after your first mention of the temple - you know what I found? A whole bunch of bullshit. Similar to your claims here - a bunch of hyper-imaginative media and bloggers claiming that the temple was 7000 years old and all without a shred of proof. Meanwhile, all the actual archeologists are not saying anything.

(October 31, 2014 at 2:28 pm)genkaus Wrote: ................you know what I found? A whole bunch of bullshit. Similar to your claims here - a bunch of hyper-imaginative media and bloggers claiming that the temple was 7000 years old and all without a shred of proof. Meanwhile, all the actual archeologists are not saying anything.

So the newspapers invented all this story.
Yes sometime it happen that newspapers make up stories in order to sell more paper however this story has solid foundations.
The temple is still there and carbon dating say that it is 7000 years old.
Even if God would manifest in front your very eyes levitating or doing other incredible things you would still believe that it is some magician doing some tricks.
Never mind this life has been wasted.
Maybe the next one will be a bit more productive.
Maybe!