I wasn't really offended. I enjoy making a showy display of often incorrect assumtions about atheists.

I never said it was 'lame'. Akin to a magic show, yes. That's how it reads. The character of Jesus gets up, his robes get whiter and those present hear a disembodied voice. Someone hiding behind a rock maybe?

Folks maintaining this transfiguration is somehow the "coming of the Kingdom of God" is what I am taking issue with. I can read the bible and "go with the story" as if reading any novel. Even when I do this taking into consideration this is the Son of God and his resurrected buddies blah blah blah... the whitening of his robes and meeting up with some dead friends of his in no way comes across as the coming of the KoG. Where was the 'power' in any of that?

And 'sides... (sorry I meant...) And beside that it seems incredulous that Jesus would announce "There are some of them that stand here" who will not taste death....." Then less than a week take 'those' out into the mountains so they can see the coming of the KoG in all it's power. If there were "some of them" who shall not taste death that implies some of them did taste death. So who was there that stand here? The story doesn't mention anything happening in those six days.

Also consider what Jesus was discussing when he was verily saying unto them. He was discussing what? God's arrival. Unless you know of another way to 'interpet' what Jesus meant when he said "...of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. " God didn't come 'in his power', he was a disembodied voice. Were Elias and Moses the holy angels?

Is it really a rational response to say "Well, he was just giving them a little taste. A sneek-peek. A preview."? Even operating within the confines of the fantasy it just don't add up. God didn't come 'in his power', he was a disembodied voice. Were Elias and Moses the holy angels?

Also, considering ALL of Jesus' word in the NT, how does he come across to you?

Natural born leader. The dude (going with the story here) had the best interests for mankind and was sincere in his giving of his own life for the sake of others.

Now. Not going with the story but playing with the myth, Jesus had some good morals overall. He knew it best if people would just treat others as they would want to be treated and forgive each other for transgressions the world would be a more peaceful place. Being a natural born leader and a smart feller he stages a buncha Criss Angel stuff and convinces that little tribe of numbnuts that he is God and they start to get a following. Rome squashes Jesus and his little band of brothers and a legend was born.
Anyways, that's my crazy idea of how the myth started.

Thanks for your reply Dotard. I'm not 'maintaining this transfiguration is somehow the "coming of the Kingdom of God"'. In a 'limited' sense the kingdom was revealed through Jesus: his miracles, his death and resurrection. The actual literal kingdom is just that- a kingdom with a ruler (actually rulers) and subjects. If you'll indulge me a bit more in these 'fantasies'- the transfiguration demonstrated that Jesus is the one with the power- two 'dead' dudes are there with him (He said He was the resurrection and the life). The main topic of Jesus' ministry was to do with the Kingdom. He demonstrated on a small scale during his short ministry, what will be accomplished when he is in charge. The 'transfiguration' was further 'proof' if you like that He wasn't just a Criss Angel kind of magician but God Himself 'spoke' from heaven and confirmed Jesus was who He said He was. I don't know how terrifying the experience would have been. The wording in the bible isn't exactly rich in adjectives etc, but suffice to say much more went on than meets the eye in the short description. I don't think Jesus' wording implies some would taste death. We differ quite a lot in how we 'interpret' his words. The 'kingdom' is a reality in a spiritual sense for Christians who live their lives as Jesus taught they should, so if you go into a Christian home you may find a little oasis of the Kingdom- do you see what I mean? 'The coming of the Kingdom of God' truly became more of a reality to the disciples when they saw the resurrected Jesus. They understood that Jesus had conquered death and the words in the 'Lords Prayer' 'your kingom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven' would one day become a reality. Remember though that a lot more work had/has to be done before the full ushuring in of the kingdom: the good news to be preached in the whole earth, the times of the gentiles to be fulfilled. I know 2000 years is long. It seems a bit 'suspicious' to say the least. It looks like it could have been a big ruse, a sincere but delusional man, whose words have come to nothing. I think this probably every day. I doubt for these reasons, but I can't help but still hold out 'hope' that He was who He said He was and He will come back. I'll share in his delusions for now....

(January 1, 2009 at 10:25 am)CoxRox Wrote: I doubt for these reasons, but I can't help but still hold out 'hope' that He was who He said He was and He will come back. I'll share in his delusions for now....

Why would you want to do that?

(January 1, 2009 at 10:44 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(January 1, 2009 at 10:25 am)CoxRox Wrote: I doubt for these reasons, but I can't help but still hold out 'hope' that He was who He said He was and He will come back. I'll share in his delusions for now....

Why would you want to do that?

I hope there is more to this life and we will see our departed loved ones again. I know it sounds like a fairy tale but I'm ever the optimist. Something about Jesus and His teachings 'speaks to me as if it is truth'.

I'd rather something that is bad that is true. Than something that isn't really good but pretends to be and then hits you when you least expect it.

Of course the things that are good AND true that are most important!

But I put truth above all unless I'm in an extremely desperate situation where I really need false comfort I guess. But I can't think of any examples right now.

Truth is above all for me.

Love that isn't really true but is faking love when its actually hate. I think is worse than 'true' hate as in hate that is honest about itself so you can contend with it rather than it disguising itself as love and then stabbing you in the back.
Evf

(January 1, 2009 at 2:49 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I'd rather something that is bad that is true. Than something that isn't really good but pretends to be and then hits you when you least expect it.

Of course the things that are good AND true that are most important!

But I put truth above all unless I'm in an extremely desperate situation where I really need false comfort I guess. But I can't think of any examples right now.

Truth is above all for me.

Love that isn't really true but is faking love when its actually hate. I think is worse than 'true' hate as in hate that is honest about itself so you can contend with it rather than it disguising itself as love and then stabbing you in the back.
Evf

I'm sure no one would disagree with you but how does that tie in with hoping there is a God etc? If there isn't, then when I die it won't matter that I 'hoped' there was. I aint gonna know.

CoxRox, it matters when people have livedi their lives enforcing their religious bigotry on society. It's fine to say it won't matter when you aren't a victim of bigotry. You can't say the same to all the countless women abused and murdered for witchcraft, or men who are tortured and killed for being gay.

(January 1, 2009 at 3:46 pm)Tiberius Wrote: CoxRox, it matters when people have livedi their lives enforcing their religious bigotry on society. It's fine to say it won't matter when you aren't a victim of bigotry. You can't say the same to all the countless women abused and murdered for witchcraft, or men who are tortured and killed for being gay.

Absolutely. I don't believe in imposing my 'beliefs' on anyone, whether it's politics or religion. Many bad things have been done in the name of 'Christianity' and politics. I'm talking on a personal level. I may have sounded flippant but I didn't mean it to come over that way.

(January 1, 2009 at 2:55 pm)CoxRox Wrote: I'm sure no one would disagree with you but how does that tie in with hoping there is a God etc? If there isn't, then when I die it won't matter that I 'hoped' there was. I aint gonna know.

Because I think the question is: Why do you hope if hoping doesn't make it true? And if you believe it - why do you need to hope? Do you believe hoping it is true has an effect on its truth like some soft of truth invoking mantra or affirmation or something?

Or are you just switching back and forth from belief and hope perhaps? If so: Why do you hope when you don't believe when the hoping has no effect on the truth of the matter? And what makes you believe when you DO belief?

Why hope something is true if hoping doesn't make it any more true? At moments you believe at moments you don't.

So is it that when you don't believe you hope you believe because you really want it to be true?

The thing is - like I said - hoping it is true doesn't have any effect on its truth.

Well I of course don't KNOW that absolutely. But what evidence, what reason, is there to believe that hope can alter the truth of the existence of the supernatural?

I also don't know absolutely that the FSM doesn't exist! And if I really really desperately wanted (to the extent that it felt like an absolute need) the FSM to exist would hoping it existed make it more likely (or less likely) that it existed? I don't see how it would!

Thoughts?
evf

Evf, I think you're making this all rather complicated when it isn't. I'm sure I've conveyed in other threads that I'm well aware that hoping for something or believing enough and keeping my eyes shut and fingers crossed, is not going to make it true. I'm not stupid. I'm not hoping for hoping's sake. I've assessed the 'evidence' or the inferences of design. I 'see' design and purpose in the universe. I 'see' truth in what Jesus speaks of. Da Dah!! I've got myself a kind of 'belief', but due to my skeptical nature and my doubts I know I may be barking up the wrong tree, so I'm not going to go and join a convent just yet. Sorry if I sound a bit peeved, but I don't really think me 'hoping' for 'more' is a big deal, or betrays a madness. That's it.