I would knock on their door on Saturday morning and give them pamphlets about how God doesn't exist.

(July 8, 2010 at 8:45 am)Godhead Wrote: Strattosphere -

No offense taken, but let's be honest here. Let us not equate religion, let alone theism in general, with ww3 and the like. You know as well as I do that the kind of people who use religion to justify that kind of stuff are a tiny minority compared to the vast proportion of religious people who are as against that as you and I. So for the sake of clarity let's make a distinction between a simple, everyday belief in god, and the crazy stuff done in its name by a few. Some of you have theist parents no doubt, so you can see that this distinction exists. With that in mind, do you still think it's important to get believers to shed their beliefs on the basis of "just in case they blow something up"? What about other people? People do bad things in the name of all kinds of stuff, but we can't go around shedding them of whatever it may be that could, maybe, possibly, form part of a reason to blow something up. As for the frustration, you have another choice, which is to not be frustrated, or, to just live with your frustration rather than trying to shed others of what frustrates you. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that there are plenty of people who don't share my views, why is it that so many atheists (based on what I've read, not just here) feel this overwhelming desire to remove what frustrates them, rather than live with it? I'm a theist but I'm not religious, and what I've observed from my "middle" position is religious people and atheists thinking along the exact same lines, which is to try so hard to get others to agree with them. If you look at that purely on a psychological level, it seems like deep insecurity.

I'll tell you what, let's not make a distinction between "a simple, everyday belief in god, and the crazy stuff done in its name by a few". The moderate believers represent the thick end of the wedge, they give religion a cosy and acceptable veneer, while trying to hide the truth that there is a thin end of radicalised nutters in every religion and that anybody who really believes is capable of being radicalised. The moderates provide an in for those who go on to commit unspeakeable attrocities, an unwarranted legitimacy for the fundies who would stultify education about prehistory and who would 'cure' homosexuality.

We have been brainwashed by history to accept the idea of a belief in god as quite normal, to think of holy men as trusted people with something to say. This is twisted!

Eilonnwy -

I don't see how ridiculing someone's arguments repeatedly (as opposed to just saying that you disagree and why, in the hope that they will eventually agree) can do any good, either for your chances of succesfully converting them, or for the discussion. And when you ridicule someone's arguments, you are indirectly ridiculing them. Try it. Have someone ridicule your arguments and you will feel that they are ridiculing you for having your views, which, let's face it, that's what they would in fact be doing. Ridiculing someone (through their views) has no benefits whatsoever. Many christians manage to convert a lot of people, and they do it by going for those who are desperate for hope, something to believe in, people who are vulnerable, and they appeal to all of that. It's not the noblest of methods in my opinion, but, purely as a method, it works. Atheists seem to want to try the ridiculing approach, and, apart from the fact that if doesn't really work and actually damages the discussion, it shows an inability to properly engage with theists in a way which would both increase the atheist's understanding of what makes theists tick, and their chances of converting them. It's lose-lose. I wonder sometimes if atheists have what it takes to actually persuade anyone, and when I think about how many times I've come across atheists who practically would like to force others to stay away from theism in any of its forms, it makes sense that they don't. It's like a game of ping ping, you go from wishing to force others to view things as you do, to ridicule, and it basically gets you nowhere. Don't take that personally as I'm not necessarily talking about you, I'm just addressing this post to you. It may or may not apply to you.

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Strattosphere -

I can see you obviously feel very strongly about this. Do you think I'm dangerous?

Convert?

Either you find the truth yourself or not at all.

There is no requirement on our part to "convert" you.

We will offer up the reasons for why believe in god/gods is invalid, but the rest you do yourself.

(July 8, 2010 at 10:39 am)Godhead Wrote: Eilonnwy -

I don't see how ridiculing someone's arguments repeatedly (as opposed to just saying that you disagree and why, in the hope that they will eventually agree) can do any good, either for your chances of succesfully converting them, or for the discussion.

And just because you can't imagine that it works, doesn't mean squat. I was listening to a podcast yesterday where an atheist, who had been a fundamentalist Christian, benefited from having his stupid arguments ridiculed. Anecdata is of course, anecdata, people react to different things in different ways. Ridicule may work on some, and others not so much. I don't much care, I'm not inclined to hold people's hand gently on the internet of all places.

You also seem to be under the impression that every form of ridicule is aimed to convert. We've said repeatedly NO. Must we say it ten times more?

(July 8, 2010 at 10:39 am)Godhead Wrote: And when you ridicule someone's arguments, you are indirectly ridiculing them. Try it. Have someone ridicule your arguments and you will feel that they are ridiculing you for having your views, which, let's face it, that's what they would in fact be doing.

And you assume I haven't been ridiculed ON THE INTERNET? I recently got put through the ringer elsewhere on a view I had (not related to atheism) and the snark, while yes, a bit shocking, was revealing, and I did change my views. OH NO, MORE ANECDATA TO CONFLICT WITH YOUR ASSERTIONS.

(July 8, 2010 at 10:39 am)Godhead Wrote: Ridiculing someone (through their views) has no benefits whatsoever. Many christians manage to convert a lot of people, and they do it by going for those who are desperate for hope, something to believe in, people who are vulnerable, and they appeal to all of that. It's not the noblest of methods in my opinion, but, purely as a method, it works. Atheists seem to want to try the ridiculing approach, and, apart from the fact that if doesn't really work and actually damages the discussion, it shows an inability to properly engage with theists in a way which would both increase the atheist's understanding of what makes theists tick, and their chances of converting them. It's lose-lose. I wonder sometimes if atheists have what it takes to actually persuade anyone, and when I think about how many times I've come across atheists who practically would like to force others to stay away from theism in any of its forms, it makes sense that they don't. It's like a game of ping ping, you go from wishing to force others to view things as you do, to ridicule, and it basically gets you nowhere. Don't take that personally as I'm not necessarily talking about you, I'm just addressing this post to you. It may or may not apply to you.

Personally I find ridicule to be far less harmful or abhorrent than preying upon people who are weak and vulnerable. But hey, YMMV.

(July 8, 2010 at 7:52 am)Godhead Wrote: Why do some atheists (judging from a couple of the responses) feel the need to say that they aren't interested in converting theists, and then show signs of frustration when theists don't agree with them, in the form of resorting to ridicule? That's not very consistent. You should be honest and just say that you'd really like to convert theists, and that it frustrates you when you don't manage it. People don't just ridicule others merely for fun, they do so for a specific reasons, and in this case I believe it is out of frustration. And that of course begs the question, what do you feel you lose when others don't agree with you?

If a theist NEVER tried to force their beliefs on me, I would never grow frustrated with those beliefs nor would I have anything to lose.

Unfortunately, I have to deal daily with theists forcing their beliefs on me, altering laws to make everyone believe the way they do, rewriting history and science to correspond to their beliefs instead of to the truth, trying to make me pray to their god, trying to force their religion on my child, telling me I am a bad person for not believing, so on, so forth.

What do I have to lose? Specifically, my freedom, my rights, and my life.

Because the simple truth is this: History has shown many times that Christians will kill and enslave in the name of their beliefs. You yourself may not advocate kicking all atheists out of the country. But if your fellow Christians did, I sincerely doubt you'd complain or try to stop them.

I am an atheist. I have never walked up to someone reading the bible and called them a horrible person. I've been accosted in public by Christians for my reading material, abused by Christians for my choice of dress, had Christians lock the doors to prevent people from leaving their sermon, had Christians threaten me with violence and actually get physical with me for not participating in their public prayer, had Christians follow me around campus to tell me what a horrible person I am and how I deserve a horrid fate because I declined their offer of a free bible, so on, so forth.

You claim it's only a small minority that do this. And that's fine, though I would question how 'small' a minority it really is, being that I was raised Christian and told many times it was my responsibility to convert those around me and 'spread the word'. I would like, however, to point out that the majority stood by and watched rather than trying to stop the behavior, and that same majority would be outraged if steps were taken to prevent that 'minority' from abusing people.


I do not try to convert. I try to educate.

(July 8, 2010 at 10:39 am)Godhead Wrote: Atheists seem to want to try the ridiculing approach, and, apart from the fact that if doesn't really work and actually damages the discussion, it shows an inability to properly engage with theists in a way which would both increase the atheist's understanding of what makes theists tick, and their chances of converting them.

Atheists generally ridicule theistic beliefs, because we generally find those beliefs to be ridiculous, i.e. worthy of ridicule. When we are using ridicule, we are not attempting to engage in a constructive discussion so much as simply amuse ourselves and perhaps others. It usually starts off as an honest attempt to, as you say, 'increase our understanding of what makes theists tick', but 9 times out of 10 (to be generous) it soon becomes clear that 'what makes the theist tick' is... worthy of ridicule. It quickly becomes clear that the theist is either unwilling, or unable, to listen to reason anyway.

Take your beliefs, for example. I personally find them seriously worthy of ridicule. At least Christians and Muslims, as nutty as their beliefs are, have ancient texts, traditions, churches, and entire communities of like-minded people to support their beliefs. Your beliefs, on the other hand, appear to be something you made up yourself... or perhaps read in a science fiction novel once. There is nothing (so far as I have seen) to support your beliefs beyond a childish sense of wonder and a 'feeling' that god exists. Just like a kid with an imaginary friend.

Am I trying to deconvert you? Nope. Just expressing my opinion. If it makes you think... good for you. If not... I won't lose any sleep over it.

In this mind -

I'm not a christian. If I was a christian, and I was in a position to stop other christians from forcing their beliefs on others, I would. You can't educate people if you don't ask questions yourself, such as, "are you a christian?" and "would you complain or try to stop someone from..." Anyway you sound like you live in a really crazy world, with christians lurking in every corner, waiting to force their beliefs on you. It's quite bizarre. Does thinking and dealing about all that take up a lot of your time and energy? Maybe you could move to another part of the world, there are plenty of places where you wouldn't even know who is a theist and who isn't.

(July 8, 2010 at 10:39 am)Godhead Wrote: Strattosphere -

I can see you obviously feel very strongly about this. Do you think I'm dangerous?

I don't know which particular brand of hokum you observe so I don't know if you're more or less dangerous than other believers, but I think anyone who has abdicated their own human sense of morality out of an irrational belief that morality comes from outside is potentially dangerous. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a religious person before an atheist. An atheist is more likely to want to hang on to this life as the only one he's got!

Paul -

It's odd how you're talking about religious communities supporting beliefs, as if numbers make any difference. If that's the case, then atheism has very little support compared to theism in all its forms. And if support has any bearing on validity, then theism must be more valid that atheism, by that reasoning. I'm not sure where you're going with that but it sounds as though you saying that the higher the number of people that agree with someone about a view, the more that constitutes actual support of the view. Numbers make no difference, which is why the fact that my beliefs are relatively unique makes no difference. Again I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think maybe what you're trying to say is "very few people agree with your specific combination of views, doesn't that make you feel unworthy or invalid or stupid?" The answer is of course no. If that's what your point is.

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Strattosphere -

I haven't abdicated a sense of morality. Where are you getting all this from?