For real. I would have thought it would be a sin to speak for god. Yet it happens all the time.

"...god is immaterial, untestable, unknowable, but he lives at 32 Spooner Street and wears a red hat..."
"..because god wanted to...."
"...because god thought that..."
"...because otherwise god would..."
"...god thought this was the best way to..."
"...god is an imaginary perfect version of myself..."

I hear a lot of these as ad-hoc rationalizations by a defeated theist in debate.

Oops, the last one slipped in from some other topic.

(November 4, 2014 at 4:39 pm)Alex K Wrote: No it doesn't. Dark energy is not a form of radiation, it doesn't involve energy transport or generation of any kind. Dark energy is the energy level of the vacuum (space devoid of real particles) as seen by Einstein's field equations. Any quantum field contributes to it.

Parker Tan's claim was that when something is created it radiates energy. When the vacuum(space devoid of real particles) is created what kind of energy transport or generation occurs?

(November 4, 2014 at 7:59 am)Rob216 Wrote: "Despite considerable experimental and theoretical effort, no compelling scenarios currently exist for the origin of replication and translation, the key processes that together comprise the core of biological systems and the apparent pre-requisite of biological evolution. The RNA World concept might offer the best chance for the resolution of this conundrum but so far cannot adequately account for the emergence of an efficient RNA replicase or the translation system. The MWO (Ed.: "many worlds in one"[118]) version of the cosmological model of eternal inflation could suggest a way out of this conundrum because, in an infinite multiverse with a finite number of distinct macroscopic histories (each repeated an infinite number of times), emergence of even highly complex systems by chance is not just possible but inevitable."

Eugene Koonin, computational biologist

So is he saying that we'd have to believe in infinite universes in order to substantiate abiogenesis? Or did I misinterpret that?

You misinterpreted it, but reasonably so. More like, with current knowledge we would have to invoke something like that as an explanation for getting through the gap of what we know could have happened and what we think did happen. However, the more we learn, the less staggering the odds. Hoyle's estimate of the odds of a cell coming together by chance, for instance, are obsolete now that we recognize that a self-replicating molecule would have preceded cell formation. It was really obsolete at the time it was made, since no one was seriously proposing that as an origin for life, but you get the idea. The odds keep getting better. We can get short strands of RNA in the lab by simulating Hadean era conditions, if we can figure out conditions that result in long strands, the odds get a LOT better.

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(November 4, 2014 at 10:59 pm)Rob216 Wrote: Atheists will say that theists don't believe what they believe because they're illogical and theists will say that atheists don't believe what they believe because they don't have faith.

If only theists would stick to that claim about us, we wouldn't have much to complain about. Instead we're constantly told that we secretly believe in God, or that it takes more faith to not believe in God than to believe in God, or that we're sure there's no God but lie about it and say we just lack belief in God for rhetorical advantage.

I long for the days when theists merely accuse us of not having enough faith to believe.

(November 5, 2014 at 9:57 am)whateverist Wrote: So Rob if you don't have an authoritative source such as a bible to inform you regarding the nature of god .. what exactly does give you your concept of god? Was your encounter with god informative regarding what god does, what his special powers may be, what he wants from you, what he wants from people generally, what role he played in the creation of life or what role he played in the creation of the cosmos? Was your experience sufficient to confirm the alleged omnipotence and omniscience?

I think one could very well have an experience of the presence of god without having any of these questions answered. Why then, I wonder, do so many theists assume to know so much about 'god'?

Well I'm not sure that I understand why so many theists would assume to know so much about god but if I had to guess I'd say that they are trying to rationalize a presence that they don't completely understand by trying to anthropomorphize it. If this presence or god has a face, a voice, and a physical body then they can give attributes to it. You hear it all the time: The hand of god, the voice of god, etc...

To address you question about about gives me my concept of god (It's sort of a long story but I'll try to shorten it by sparing some of the details but feel free to ask questions if you want to know more): I had something happen to me that made me believe in the the omnipotence of god. I was burned badly on my left hand and face (the burns on my hand was much more significant though). The burns were looked at and treated. After about 6 weeks I burned the area on my hand that was already burned. If anybody has ever had 2nd or 3rd degree burns you already know how unbearable it is, now add another burn on top of the already burnt skin. In a moment of desperation I yelled something like "God, if you're real then make it stop!". In that instance the pain went away. 2 days later the burn healed completely. I have no scars or nerve damage. When this was all happening I considered myself an atheist, but trust me if you are in enough pain you will say or do anything to get it to stop. So yea, that was my turning point.
You may not believe my story but there are 3 parts of it that I can prove. First, I have pictures of the burn that I had on my hand. Secondly, I have the paperwork from the hospital saying that I was treated for it. Lastly, I could show you my hand and you'd never know that it was burned if I hadn't already told you.

Another story worthy of a "why doesn't god do the same for amputees?"

(November 6, 2014 at 3:23 am)pocaracas Wrote: Another story worthy of a "why doesn't god do the same for amputees?"

Fair enough. I didn't tell my story to try to explain anything other than why I hold my set of beliefs.

(November 6, 2014 at 3:35 am)Rob216 Wrote:

(November 6, 2014 at 3:23 am)pocaracas Wrote: Another story worthy of a "why doesn't god do the same for amputees?"

Fair enough. I didn't tell my story to try to explain anything other than why I hold my set of beliefs.

Yes, I'm aware of that.
But, being a skeptic, I go the extra mile.
Had that happened to me, I would never attribute it to a god.

I once had a wart on my left thumb. It was there for a few months...perhaps 6, when I decided to get it checked out by a doctor.
The doctor prescribed an acid that would burn the wart. I'd have to be careful not to burn the healthy skin around it, so the doctor advised me to to cover the surrounding skin with some cream, prior to applying acid.
I bought the acid and took it home, but didn't use it that day...it required much preparation and I wasn't feeling like doing it.
The next day, I woke up and noticed the wart was gone. It's like it got scared of the acid.
To this day, it hasn't reappeared.
No god was asked to do anything...no divine intervention was attributed to the occurrence.
It just got scared away.
The correct mindset can do wonders on the healing factor of the body... but it can't do everything.
That's why you don't see amputees getting cured...
I'll admit that belief in a god does tend to help bring about the correct mindset... however, it has nothing to do with the actual existence of the god.

I have said similar things to god many times, and not even a nibble.

I'm very sorry that happened to you and it's great that it improved, but I would have to say it is most likely coincidence. There's probably a million prayers being told a second, so the fact that one somewhere gets "answered" is not very surprising.

(November 6, 2014 at 12:38 am)Rob216 Wrote:

(November 5, 2014 at 9:57 am)whateverist Wrote: So Rob if you don't have an authoritative source such as a bible to inform you regarding the nature of god .. what exactly does give you your concept of god?

Well I'm not sure that I understand why so many theists would assume to know so much about god but if I had to guess I'd say that they are trying to rationalize a presence that they don't completely understand by trying to anthropomorphize it. If this presence or god has a face, a voice, and a physical body then they can give attributes to it. You hear it all the time: The hand of god, the voice of god, etc...

To address you question about about gives me my concept of god (It's sort of a long story but I'll try to shorten it by sparing some of the details but feel free to ask questions if you want to know more): I had something happen to me that made me believe in the the omnipotence of god. I was burned badly on my left hand and face (the burns on my hand was much more significant though). The burns were looked at and treated. After about 6 weeks I burned the area on my hand that was already burned. If anybody has ever had 2nd or 3rd degree burns you already know how unbearable it is, now add another burn on top of the already burnt skin. In a moment of desperation I yelled something like "God, if you're real then make it stop!". In that instance the pain went away. 2 days later the burn healed completely. I have no scars or nerve damage. When this was all happening I considered myself an atheist, but trust me if you are in enough pain you will say or do anything to get it to stop. So yea, that was my turning point.
You may not believe my story but there are 3 parts of it that I can prove. First, I have pictures of the burn that I had on my hand. Secondly, I have the paperwork from the hospital saying that I was treated for it. Lastly, I could show you my hand and you'd never know that it was burned if I hadn't already told you.

May I pick a nit? I think I can understand how you would find that convincing. But then why don't you just believe in a god powerful enough to allow you to block out the feeling of pain and perhaps facilitate a good recovery? Also, do you conceptualize god as being 'out there', or would something on-board suffice for you? Your experience in particular would seem to be covered by the on-board variety.

Are you agnostic then regarding any creator role for the god you believe in? What do you think the prospects are for our essential immortality. I'm just wondering how your specific experience regarding heeling and the perception of pain supports any other supposed attribute of god. Hope I'm not prying too much.

(November 6, 2014 at 7:57 am)robvalue Wrote: I have said similar things to god many times, and not even a nibble.

I'm very sorry that happened to you and it's great that it improved, but I would have to say it is most likely coincidence. There's probably a million prayers being told a second, so the fact that one somewhere gets "answered" is not very surprising.

Mhmm. My fiancee prayed that exact prayer on what could very likely have been her deathbed, even forgoing medicine that could have helped her under the belief that god would provide. Funnily enough, it was the medicine that eventually allowed her to recover, not god. She still suffers, but she walked out of that hospital room as a pretty good argument against a medically interventionist god, if we're talking about personal experience.