(November 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm)Cato Wrote: In my experience Jews are much more knowledgeable about the contents of the Tanakh than Christians are of The Bible.

Probably the reason why my grandfather never paid a visit to a synagogue.

But looking at the Ultra Orthodox, knowledge isn't any better than ignorance.

(November 17, 2014 at 5:14 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 10:03 am)Khansins Wrote: I have already said in one of the threads earlier that Islam does Not and will never allow killing of any human. Our Prophet did not do so. Who am I to kill someone ?

Do you reject the Hadiths? Because I can think of one where Mohammed orders a man executed after he confesses that he committed adultery.

I'm not well versed on the history of Islam but wasn't the prophet a warlord who basically conquered and made war on other tribes?

(November 17, 2014 at 10:03 am)Khansins Wrote: I have already said in one of the threads earlier that Islam does Not and will never allow killing of any human. Our Prophet did not do so. Who am I to kill someone ?

Explains why Islamic countries prohibit the practice of Sharia Law.

(November 17, 2014 at 12:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:And you cannot infer the state of Islam from the way Islamic State carry out their so-called Islamic acts.

They are far from alone. Taliban. Boko Haram. Al Nusra. Al Shabaab. Al Qaeda. Al-Badr. Ansaw el-Sharia. Etc., etc.


BTW, they think THEY are true muslims and you are not.

I dont think I'm a true Muslim either. I'm imperfect human who is trying to achieve perfection.

(November 17, 2014 at 12:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 1:50 am)Khansins Wrote: I'm interested in knowing the questions or doubts atheists or theists of other religions have about Islam. I might not be the pure authentic source for provision of answers( The Only authentic source is Quran and Sunnah) but I would struggle to satisfy you with all my effort.

Absolutely. Where do you see Islam in a decade? Where is it going and how do you feel that it will get to wherever that is? I have more, but they all start there.

I see Islam flourising quite fast in today's world. And in days to come ,it will spread even larger. But NOTE here as well that at the same time Islamic extremism will spread too like a wild fire. It will mostly affect the Islamic states and this is warned to us by Prophet. He said that you should beware of extremism as extremism has disrupted past Islamic nations.

The war against terrorism today is also a war to free Islamic civilization from the baleful actions of extremists and to give that area of the world a chance to experience liberty, for liberty is the only medium by which religion can truly flourish.

(November 17, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Since the only answers so far have been the "no you're wrong; no that's not true" variety, I think I'll ask my questions elsewhere. Thanks all the same.

Stimbo !! Agreed. I have not given any full fledged answer to any question. It may be because I dont see any question which needs address from Quran and Sunnah's statements. Whats your question again anyway ? Let me see to it.

(November 17, 2014 at 5:16 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 5:14 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Do you reject the Hadiths? Because I can think of one where Mohammed orders a man executed after he confesses that he committed adultery.

I'm not well versed on the history of Islam but wasn't the prophet a warlord who basically conquered and made war on other tribes?

Can you please clarify that Hadith ?

(November 17, 2014 at 7:01 pm)Cato Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 10:03 am)Khansins Wrote: I have already said in one of the threads earlier that Islam does Not and will never allow killing of any human. Our Prophet did not do so. Who am I to kill someone ?

Explains why Islamic countries prohibit the practice of Sharia Law.

Countries don’t have exact Sharia law but most of the Islamic countries do contain 'elements' of Sharia.The word sharia means "the path to a watering hole". It denotes an Islamic way of life that is more than a system of criminal justice. Sharia is a religious code for living, in the same way that the Bible offers a moral system for Christians.

It is adopted by most Muslims to a greater or lesser degree as a matter of personal conscience, but it can also be formally instituted as law by certain states and enforced by the courts. Many Islamic countries have adopted elements of sharia law, governing areas such as inheritance, banking and contract law. Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences are not universally adopted as law in Islamic countries.

Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. In others, such as Pakistan, the penalties have not been enforced. The majority of Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, have not adopted Hadd offences as part of their state laws.Many Islamic countries will have adultery and the drinking of alcohol defined as criminal offences in law, but they are not defined as Hadd offences because they do not carry the Hadd penalty. They are often punishable by a prison term instead.

I see that various countries still uphold Sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application...by_country).

---

(November 17, 2014 at 5:14 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm not well versed on the history of Islam but wasn't the prophet a warlord who basically conquered and made war on other tribes?

Thats right !!!

Many people point to the fact that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a military leader who was involved in several wars, and that Islamic rule spread throughout the Arabian peninsula during the Prophet’s lifetime. They also note that later Muslim rulers, claiming to follow the example of the Prophet, engaged in wars to spread Islamic rule in the Middle East, North Africa, Asia, and Europe.
There’s no doubt that later Muslim rulers used force to spread Islamic rule. But Muslims today are divided about the Prophet’s personal legacy regarding justifications for the use of military force. Some Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force to spread Islamic rule, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today. However, other Muslims argue that the Prophet used military force only for self-defense of the small Muslim community, so that is the example that Muslims must follow today.

Persecution of Muslims in Mecca, and Muslim Migration to Medina

The Prophet began receiving revelations from God in 610 CE in Mecca. As a result, the Prophet criticized the Meccans for worshipping idols and for mistreating the weak. Therefore, the Meccans became hostile to the Muslims and subjected the Muslims to physical abuse. When some of the Muslims escaped to Abyssinia, the Meccans followed them and unsuccessfully tried to convince the Abyssinians to turn the Muslims over to the Meccans. In September 622 CE, the Meccans tried to assassinate the Prophet. The Prophet and his followers escaped to Medina at the invitation of a group of people from Medina who had become Muslim. The Prophet and his followers left their homes and all their property in Mecca and fled to Medina; the Meccans confiscated the Muslims’ property.

Continuing Tension between Muslims and Meccans

From Medina, the Prophet continued to criticize the Meccans for worshipping idols and for mistreating the weak.
The Meccans demanded that the people of Medina expel the Prophet and turn him over to the Meccans; the Meccans threatened to attack Medina if the Prophet was not turned over.
Small groups of Meccans traveled to the outskirts of Medina, got into skirmishes with Muslims, and seized livestock from Medina.
Muslims from Medina seized Meccan trading caravans passing near Medina. These caravans were owned by the wealthy Meccans who had abused the Muslims in Mecca.

The Battle of Uhud

Following the Muslim victory at Badr, the Prophet continued to criticize the Meccans for worshipping idols and for mistreating the weak.
Following the Muslim victory at Badr, Muslims continued to seize Meccan caravans. The Meccans and their allies destroyed agricultural property around Medina.
A year after the Battle of Badr, in March 625 CE (the third year after the Prophet moved to Medina), a Meccan army marched towards Medina to fight the Muslims. In response, a Muslim army met the Meccan army near Mount Uhud, a mountain north of Medina. The Meccans won the Battle of Uhud.

Following the Battle of Uhud, the Muslims expelled a Jewish tribe (Banu Nadir) from Medina after the tribe attempted to assassinate the Prophet. This Jewish tribe moved north to Khaybar, where many other Jews lived. Other Jews remained in Medina.

It's amazing to me, that in apparent goodwill, Khansins politely asked if anyone had any questions about Islam, and was rewarded with snarky, bullshit comments. That's fucked up.

(November 17, 2014 at 10:16 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 10:05 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well Khansins, it appears that many, many other Muslims think you are very wrong about that. How do you prove them to be in error?

They're not real muslims™.

This message brought to you by Scotty.

Islam does not at all allow kilig on innocents. As per Islam killing one innocent person is like killing whole the humanity and saving one life is like saving whole the humanity.

There are extremists in every society. There are such extremist muslims who are involved in killings of innocent persons to take reveng against baised actions against of Europe and USA. These muslims are not following Islam but are harming the message of Islam.

As per Islam muslims are not allowed to kill innocent persons despite that their enemy may kill muslim innocents. There has to be differene between muslims and others. We as muslims has to set examples, and show right path to others as this is the main person of the life of a muslim. Born muslims are responsible to spread the message of Islam, therefore they are not allowed to do anything inhuman.

Quran says in Surah 60 , Verses

9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) indriving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). Itis such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Quran says in Surah 60 , Verses

"Whoever kills a believer intentionally, their reward will be Hell, to abide therein forever, and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon them, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for them." (Holy Quran, Chapter 4, Verse 93)

9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) indriving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). Itis such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Quran says in Surah 5 verse 32

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and ifany one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the wholepeople. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs,yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in theland.

Islam strongly prohibits the killing of any person without lawful reasons. Islamic teachings do not allow any person to take the law into their own hands and to commit murder, no matter what justification is used. Although Islam does impose the capital punishment for certain crimes, no one person can act as the accuer, judge and executioner. This would lead to a complete breakdown of society, as any person would be able to commit murder and then claim that they had valid reasons for doing so. Therefore, Islam has instituted a very specific system of implementing the law. Islam requires that a judge hear the case of both the accuser and the accused, and to listen to witnesses before making any judgement. This ensures that society operates based on the rule of law such that justice is established.

Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.

Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

Q: was I born a muslim?

(November 18, 2014 at 12:34 pm)Khansins Wrote:

(November 17, 2014 at 10:16 am)pocaracas Wrote: They're not real muslims™.

This message brought to you by Scotty.

Islam does not at all allow kilig on innocents. As per Islam killing one innocent person is like killing whole the humanity and saving one life is like saving whole the humanity.

Okay Khansins, which is it? Previously you said Islam doesn't allow killing humans. Now you've whittled this down to not killing innocents.

(November 18, 2014 at 12:16 pm)Khansins Wrote: Can you please clarify that Hadith ?

That sounds like you do follow the Hadith, else it wouldn't matter.

Bukhari (6:60:79) - Two people guilty of "illegal" intercourse are brought to Muhammad, who orders them both stoned to death. Apparently their act was out of love, since the verse records the man as trying to shield the woman from the stones.

Muslim (17:4196) - A married man confesses that he has committed adultery. Muhammad orders him stoned. According to the passage, the first several stones caused such pain that he tried to escape and was dragged back.

Muslim (17:4206) - A woman who became pregnant confesses to Muhammad that she is guilty of adultery. Muhammad allows her to have the child, then has her stoned.

Muslim (17:4209) - A woman confesses adultery and is stoned to death on Muhammad's order. Her lover is punished with 100 lashes and exile for a year.

If you were indoctrinated and threatened with hell and/or violence/punishment for even asking questions about religion, you have my sympathy. Such is often the way. It forced false truths into young minds so that even as adults they become too deeply ingrained to be distinguished from fantasy. Indoctrination is child abuse. I can only imagine how hard it must be to try and fight against something as harmful as that. If you weren't, and came by Islam through free choice, then you should find it easier to think about critically.

Two quick points:

(1) If something is true, it doesn't need threats to make it believable
(2) How can you possibly distinguish between perceived messages from god or whatever, from mental delusion? Someone shoots a guy and claims god was speaking to him, telling him to do it. What's the assessment?

I haven't seen any actual answers so far, just the usual apologetic spin and excuses. I'm not insulting you, I'm insulting your religion and your arguments. Sometimes it's the only way to get the point across. And I'm doing so with backed up arguments. And believe it or not, I have your best interests at heart. Fairy tails are fine, but when it comes to people being actually killed we have to stop worrying about being PC. I have no idea what kind of thing you expected us to ask, so I'm sorry if you've been disappointed. Imagine someone came to you and said you could ask them questions about santa claus, what would you say?

Say I'm a member of a chess club. I find out one day that there is a 1% group of people in my chess club who are going round killing people with giant chess pieces. I also find out that my chess handbook has clauses I wasn't aware of encouraging this kind of behaviour. What would I do?

I would leave the club. I would want nothing more to do with it. I would start my own chess club, with my own handbook. I could insert into my club the things that were good about the old one, and leave out all the horrific parts of my handbook which enabled the problem. I would make it very clear I am nothing to do with the other chess club, I would change the name, and I wouldn't just be a "moderate" member of the club, rolling my eyes at the more extreme members.

I appreciate that where Islam is concerned, leaving is not as simple as that. I understand the need to fake belief for self preservation, until such a time as you may get a chance for freedom. I get that, and I sympathize deeply with all the people in that situation. But I don't understand coming to an atheist forum and trying to defend Islam. This would be the place to be honest, to say all the things you can't say elsewhere.

But if you really do think Islam is good, then there is not much more I can say. I hope one day you will wake up and see that it's a horrific religion, as are most religions. It's based around control and fear, just like christianity, although in a more obvious way. Holy books are bullshit. They were written by dweebs a long time ago who didn't know shit except how to kill each other with rocks. If you think they are anything more than that, you have been brainwashed. You don't need the religion, you don't need the book. You are a human first, and if you have been made to feel that being a Muslim is part of your identity, you have been coerced like all the others, and it is an insult to your individuality.