(November 23, 2014 at 10:59 am)Nope Wrote: So, your concept of hell is a place where the damned go to have fun? Are you saying that atheists will be partying in hell? Because I have heard most Christians describe hell as a place that no one wants to go, your version of hell is new to me. I want to be fair so I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying. Hell-according to you-will be a great place for those of us who don't believe in god? There won't be torture or misery? So, why do Christians work so hard to convert people? Just let the unsaved go to their version of heaven and you go to your version of heaven. It sounds like a win/win for everyone.

Don't worry, that's the third or fourth rendition of hell I have heard on this board alone.

(November 23, 2014 at 11:03 am)abaris Wrote:

(November 23, 2014 at 10:59 am)Nope Wrote: So, your concept of hell is a place where the damned go to have fun? Are you saying that atheists will be partying in hell? Because I have heard most Christians describe hell as a place that no one wants to go, your version of hell is new to me. I want to be fair so I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying. Hell-according to you-will be a great place for those of us who don't believe in god? There won't be torture or misery? So, why do Christians work so hard to convert people? Just let the unsaved go to their version of heaven and you go to your version of heaven. It sounds like a win/win for everyone.

Don't worry, that's the third or fourth rendition of hell I have heard on this board alone.

Hopefully, he corrects any Christian who comes here and tries to tell us that we shouldn't look forward to hell.

From Swedenborg's Divine Providence -

Certain spirits by permission ascended from hell and said to me, You have written many things from the Lord; write something from us, too. I replied, What shall I write? They said, Write that every spirit, whether good or wicked, is in his own delight; the good spirit is in the delight of his good and the wicked spirit is in the delight of his evil. I then asked, What is your delight? And they replied that it was the delight of committing adultery, stealing, defrauding and telling lies. Again I asked, What are these delights like? They replied, They are perceived by others as offensive odours from excrement, and as the putrid smell from dead bodies, and as the reeking stench from stagnant urine pools. I then said, Are they delightful to you? And they replied, They are most delightful. I said, Then you are like unclean beasts that live in such filth. To this they replied, If we are, we are; nevertheless, such things are a delight to our nostrils.

[7] I asked, What more shall I write from you? They said, Write this, that everyone is permitted to gratify his own delight, even that which is most unclean, as it is called, provided he does not molest good spirits and angels; but as we could not do otherwise than molest them we were driven away and cast into hell, where we suffer dreadfully. I asked, Why did you molest the good? And they replied that they could not do otherwise. It was as if a certain fury seized hold of them when they caught sight of any angel and felt the Divine sphere around him. Thereupon I said, You are indeed like wild beasts. When they heard this a fury came over them which appeared like the fire of hate; and to prevent them doing any harm they were withdrawn to hell. Concerning delights perceived as odours and offensive smells in the spiritual world see above (n. 303-305, 324).

(November 23, 2014 at 12:03 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: From Swedenborg's Divine Providence -

l. I then asked, What is your delight? And they replied that it was the delight of committing adultery, stealing, defrauding and telling lies. Again I asked, What are these delights like? They replied, They are perceived by others as offensive odours from excrement, and as the putrid smell from dead bodies, and as the reeking stench from stagnant urine pools. I then said, Are they delightful to you? And they replied, They are most delightful. I said, Then you are like unclean beasts that live in such filth. To this they replied, If we are, we are; nevertheless, such things are a delight to our nostrils.

That is not coming from the bible but I am not aware what the Swedenborg Divine Providence is.

Because I try to live an honest life that includes helping others and not defrauding or committing adultery, I don't have to worry about going anywhere that smells like excrement. Hooray! Actually, I am a very shy, quiet person who straightens up her own hotel room so room service doesn't have too much work to do. LOL My hell might be a very friendly place without too many people asking me to be the center of attention.

I am very new here so I forgive me for asking but what denomination of Christian are you? How does what you just quoted apply to your idea of hell and do you mind using your own words to explain?

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Leave us to our orgies if sex repulses you so. Leave us to live our lives as we choose, if you wish to spend your days worshiping someone else. That actually sounds like the best case scenario to me.

...Its more like the addict who cannot give up their substance (because they delight in it) even though it makes the rest of their life a wreck. Its all about choices (free will) with cause and effect. If orgies are someone's thing then they have chosen sexuality devoid of intimacy.

(November 22, 2014 at 4:25 pm)Nope Wrote: When I was a Christian, I thought that freewill was a lovely concept. Of course, the god that I worshiped didn't want his followers to be robots! As I got older, I began to follow some of my ideas to their logical conclusion.

Most Christians will say that their god gave humans free will so that they would freely decide to worship and love him. Awww....who could be upset with that
However, the same free will is responsible for humans doing sometimes unimaginably horrible things to one another.

For a time, I was happy with the answer that a perfect god does not allow evil but that human's free will is the cause of cruelty. Then one day I made the connection. We have free will, according to Christians, because god wants love. That means that babies are raped because god wants love. That is really sick.

After that, I could not believe in the Christian concept of god and that was one of the many things that started my slow movement away from faith.

I was just curious if any of you had considered how twisted the idea of free will and its consequences are?

Would it make you feel any better to know 'free will' is a greek philosophy that crept into the church, and the bible does not mention it?

In fact the bible says the opposite. In that we are all slaves with only one choice. To either be a slave a God or to be a slave of sin.

Yes, we're aware that many, many things crept into the religion from other cultures. We also know that the main reason the bible has such a problem with sex and homosexuality is to set them apart from the Greeks and Babylonians.

Quote:In fact the bible says the opposite. In that we are all slaves with only one choice. To either be a slave a God or to be a slave of sin.

The eternal question: who in their mind would like to follow such a demented and depressing philosophy?

(November 23, 2014 at 1:32 pm)Drich Wrote: Would it make you feel any better to know 'free will' is a greek philosophy that crept into the church, and the bible does not mention it?

In fact the bible says the opposite. In that we are all slaves with only one choice. To either be a slave a God or to be a slave of sin.

Greek philosophy or not, the Bible frequently alludes to free will. Even if we have 'only one choice' you mentioned, that is STILL an exercise of free will.

The only context in which the term 'free will' makes any coherent sense at all is in the ability of beings to make a non-coerced choice. The most obviously example in the Bible is the myth about the 'Fall'. Adam was instructed not to eat from the particular tree. In fact, it was clearly God's will that Adam NOT eat the fruit of this tree. Adam did so anyway. That is, he made a clear, non-coerced, free choice.

Dozens of other examples that I can't be arsed to research right now, but I seem to recall allusions to free will in John, Ephesians, and Revelation, for starters.

Boru