(November 29, 2014 at 3:57 pm)Castiel Wrote: I grew up in a Christian home, believing in miracles and that God proves himself in many ways each day. I no longer believe in God, but some of the stories of "miracles" I've heard are just... hard to dismiss.

A friend of a friend supposedly felt "God" telling her to pull over while she was on the highway. She ignored it several times, and then finally gave in and pulled over. She got out, looked down, and found her husband's wallet, which had apparently fallen off his truck earlier that day. My family shared her story and basically said that "God knew exactly how many times He'd have to tell her to pull over before she did it, and it was all in His perfect timing so that she'd pull over at the right place".

That is just one scenario that I have been told about by my super spiritual family. I'm just wondering what any atheists, or simply anyone who's not a Christian, believes about this.

What are the odds of that happening? Does this mean there's something like "fate" that caused this? Is it some other force of nature we've yet to understand that is responsible for these unbelievable coincidences? Or... could there be a God, after all? If so, why would any loving God take the time to find someone's wallet, but not rescue someone from disease, war, rape, hunger... etc.?

What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world. Who is he, what does this seemingly trivial thing like a found wallet mean from the eternal perspective of those sourounding not only that person but someone like you... If nothing else came of it the wallet incident gave you a pause or a last chance to explore your faith before you anandoned it completely. Even if you leave your faith for a while this story could be God leaving an candle burning for you/your way home some day.

All of the things you mentioned have to do with the very limited time we have here. In the scope of eternity, what does 100 years of hardship or luxury really mean? It is what we choose for ourselves in this life that makes all the difference in eternity.

(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 29, 2014 at 3:57 pm)Castiel Wrote: I grew up in a Christian home, believing in miracles and that God proves himself in many ways each day. I no longer believe in God, but some of the stories of "miracles" I've heard are just... hard to dismiss.

A friend of a friend supposedly felt "God" telling her to pull over while she was on the highway. She ignored it several times, and then finally gave in and pulled over. She got out, looked down, and found her husband's wallet, which had apparently fallen off his truck earlier that day. My family shared her story and basically said that "God knew exactly how many times He'd have to tell her to pull over before she did it, and it was all in His perfect timing so that she'd pull over at the right place".

That is just one scenario that I have been told about by my super spiritual family. I'm just wondering what any atheists, or simply anyone who's not a Christian, believes about this.

What are the odds of that happening? Does this mean there's something like "fate" that caused this? Is it some other force of nature we've yet to understand that is responsible for these unbelievable coincidences? Or... could there be a God, after all? If so, why would any loving God take the time to find someone's wallet, but not rescue someone from disease, war, rape, hunger... etc.?

What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world. Who is he, what does this seemingly trivial thing like a found wallet mean from the eternal perspective of those sourounding not only that person but someone like you... If nothing else came of it the wallet incident gave you a pause or a last chance to explore your faith before you anandoned it completely. Even if you leave your faith for a while this story could be God leaving an candle burning for you/your way home some day.

All of the things you mentioned have to do with the very limited time we have here. In the scope of eternity, what does 100 years of hardship or luxury really mean? It is what we choose for ourselves in this life that makes all the difference in eternity.

Dirch its coming to a point were humanity can live past its morality and physical body. If you know anything and i will do this replace my body with machine parts and live longer. If you know anything about that it prolongs life indefinitely. So the need of needing a god or some sort of after life for those people who augmented really don't need to worry anymore. Human immortality the true enemy of god because its like a quarter super glued to the ground.

(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 am)Drich Wrote: What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world.

...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

(December 3, 2014 at 2:58 am)Castiel Wrote: ...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

As you continue to engage Drich, you will discover that this is exactly what he implies. His answer to Euthyphro's dilemma is that whatever God wills is good regardless of how heinous or atrocious it is. If you challenge him on it he will simply hide under the skirt of Mysterious Ways.

(December 3, 2014 at 2:22 am)dyresand Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 am)Drich Wrote: What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world. Who is he, what does this seemingly trivial thing like a found wallet mean from the eternal perspective of those sourounding not only that person but someone like you... If nothing else came of it the wallet incident gave you a pause or a last chance to explore your faith before you anandoned it completely. Even if you leave your faith for a while this story could be God leaving an candle burning for you/your way home some day.

All of the things you mentioned have to do with the very limited time we have here. In the scope of eternity, what does 100 years of hardship or luxury really mean? It is what we choose for ourselves in this life that makes all the difference in eternity.

Dirch its coming to a point were humanity can live past its morality and physical body. If you know anything and i will do this replace my body with machine parts and live longer. If you know anything about that it prolongs life indefinitely. So the need of needing a god or some sort of after life for those people who augmented really don't need to worry anymore. Human immortality the true enemy of god because its like a quarter super glued to the ground.

Do you have grandparents? What about great grandparents? Ever spoke to anyone over 100 years old?

Appearently not by your sci-fi hope in living beyond your appointed time.

In short our minds/brains do not have an infinite potential. Even if you can up load all that you know into a machine before your mind falls apart, you yourself would remain. even if your consciencenousness could be duplicated, it would still only be a copy. You will still die sport, even if your copy lives on.

So no. You will not prolong your life in any meaningful way beyond what you have been allocated to live.

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(December 3, 2014 at 2:58 am)Castiel Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 am)Drich Wrote: What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world.

...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

No I am saying that depending on the circumstance a lost wallet more over a found wallet can have a more profound impact on a person's eternity than a rape or murder.

As such God is more concerned with our eternity than our next 100 years. Therefore God looks to act in such away as to preserve our eternal live and not our physical bodies.

A good example would be what He allowed to happen to His own Son on and before the cross. If our eternity required such a sacrifice on His part, why would we demand that we be saved from such an event if it would cost us the eternal life He died providing us?

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(December 3, 2014 at 8:45 am)Cato Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 2:58 am)Castiel Wrote: ...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

As you continue to engage Drich, you will discover that this is exactly what he implies. His answer to Euthyphro's dilemma is that whatever God wills is good regardless of how heinous or atrocious it is. If you challenge him on it he will simply hide under the skirt of Mysterious Ways.

Please provide a "mysterious ways" quote from me.

(November 29, 2014 at 3:57 pm)Castiel Wrote: I grew up in a Christian home, believing in miracles and that God proves himself in many ways each day. I no longer believe in God, but some of the stories of "miracles" I've heard are just... hard to dismiss.

As I was slowly losing my faith, one of the things I noticed about such stories is that they were always recounted by someone who "heard" about them. And I can still recall a good dozen or two. Basically they are urban legends, stories that always happen to someone else (often two or three times removed) and which are impossible to verify. If you ever read through the Snopes site, you will discover that a lot of people will tell such stories as if they experienced them, even though the story --to the last detail-- has been told numerous times before by many other people.

As was already said, confirmation bias plays a very strong role in how these stories shape our outlook. If they tell us something we want to believe, we are much more likely to accept them critically. Conversely, if they go against what we believe (for example, a person of a different faith telling of a mystical experience with god or angels) we are more likely to find some fault with them, or create our own alternative view (that person was deceived by demons!). As you hear more of these "experiences" from people, they can serve to strengthen a belief system even though they are nothing but hearsay.

If we want to believe in miracles and the supernatural, we can find an endless bunch of "examples" of both. They are particularly effective because they can be layered over with any number of apologetic responses, such as "you can't prove it didn't happen" or "how else do you explain it" or "are you calling my wife's hairdresser's second cousin a LIAR?"

(November 29, 2014 at 8:34 pm)Castiel Wrote:

(November 29, 2014 at 7:39 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Yep, I'm sold... wallet god for me.
Could the friend of a friend be lying about that story? Oh, no...impossible! Christians never lie! [/sarcasm]

I don't know why she'd bother lying about it, but I think it's highly probable that she, being so spiritual, attributed the situation to the God she believes in. Maybe she had a feeling in her gut to pull over, saw the wallet, and figured it had been God telling her to do that. Or, perhaps she actually saw something in the road, pulled over, and later convinced herself that it was a miracle from God, because it made her feel more secure in her faith.

My family is Pentecostal. From my observations, I have concluded that Pentacostalism is almost entirely driven by 'cool stories' like that of your friend. Stories change as they're retold. They get a little embellished, parts that don't advance the plot or the message are dropped off, except what's required for that ring of authenticity. No intentional deception is necessary, just a human flair for storytelling.

(December 3, 2014 at 2:58 am)Castiel Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 1:44 am)Drich Wrote: What makes disease, war, rape, hunger and more or less important that finding a wallet? Truthfully, it is the circumstances surrounding that particular person and his wallet, that make all the difference in the world.

...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

You obviously haven't met drippy before. He says stupid shit like that all the time. He's one of those "true xtians."

(December 3, 2014 at 12:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 3, 2014 at 2:58 am)Castiel Wrote: ...I'm sorry, are you trying to say that some guy losing his wallet is on the same level as someone being raped or murdered?

You obviously haven't met drippy before. He says stupid shit like that all the time. He's one of those "true xtians."

*Turns on self-righteous Christian indignity* Well you obviously just haven't A/S/K'ed hard enough!

You ever notice how all of these things are utterly nonfalsifiable? The woman telling the story

• was alone
  
• felt something that she can't explain or demonstrate to others
  
• found something completely mundane that could have happened without a miracle
  

Why don't we ever hear stories about people's limbs growing back right in front of other people's eyes or food magically appearing to feed people? It's always healed chronic back pain, or someone can walk who couldn't earlier, or friend of a friend saw something crazy, srsly guys!