So, could you choose to become an atheist Chad? If you think I can choose to become a theist?

I am happy to evaluate any evidence, but if it's not convincing I can't make myself believe it is.

(December 6, 2014 at 11:52 am)Natachan Wrote: So as time passes I find myself becoming less tolerant of religious BS and of religion in general. When I first came out I was around religious moderates and reasonable people. I told them I disagreed with them, but if they got something out of it whatever. It just wasn't for me. And they were all very understanding. And in my university, well it's a university. Such things are widely accepted there (even in oklahoma).

However recently some folks have been blathering on Facebook about the damn "war on Xmas" and how this should be a godly nation. And I try not to comment. Whatever. It's their page, they can believe what they want. But the oh-so-subtle attacks are starting to get to me.

I'm getting sick of hearing subtle jibes against me. I'm getting sick of people I care about thoughtlessly reposting and sharing such sentiments. And I'm nearly at the point of calling out some people publicly on it.

And I'm generally not an angry atheist. I love christmas. I like Easter. If you privately want a religious celebration on your personal property, or on church property, great! Go for it! I'm just sick of public officials subtly implying that to be a proper american I have to follow their beliefs.

It's entirely understandable. But I think that atheists ought to remain cautious about allowing anger to become emotional to a point that it detracts from the necessity of promoting open, rational discourse.

Yeah, let anger be the motivation but not the decision maker.

(December 7, 2014 at 12:28 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(December 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm)Natachan Wrote: I am obligated to believe that by the evidence.

If that were true, then you'd recognize the validity of the Aquinas's 5 ways, which have never been fully refuted.

Quote:Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

Consider it refuted. He says everyone and I do not attribute anything to your absurd god. I'm sure there are others so....fuck Aquinas and his jesus freak shit.

(December 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(December 7, 2014 at 12:28 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: If that were true, then you'd recognize the validity of the Aquinas's 5 ways, which have never been fully refuted.

Quote:Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

Consider it refuted. He says everyone and I do not attribute anything to your absurd god. I'm sure there are others so....fuck Aquinas and his jesus freak shit.

It's easily refuted by the fact that Prime Mover is indistinguishable from Self-Existent Unified Principle of Order, and nobody can establish that principles are persons, which is what every Deist asserts. Theism requires an additional touch of credulity and ignorance.

And the prime mover needs a mover, unless you want to employ special pleading.

(December 7, 2014 at 1:27 pm)robvalue Wrote: So, could you choose to become an atheist Chad? If you think I can choose to become a theist?

I was once an atheist, by choice, and now I am a believer, by choice.

OK, that's not how most people's brains work though.

(December 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: ...the fact that Prime Mover is indistinguishable from Self-Existent Unified Principle of Order, and nobody can establish that principles are persons...

The prime mover is just the first way. Showing that it is intelligent falls within the 5th way.

(December 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(December 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: ...the fact that Prime Mover is indistinguishable from Self-Existent Unified Principle of Order, and nobody can establish that principles are persons...

The prime mover is just the first way. Showing that it is intelligent falls within the 5th way.

I can only assume it's teleological. And everybody since Kant and Darwin ought to know that can't succeed.