(December 12, 2014 at 12:05 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(December 11, 2014 at 6:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I'd guess that every religion can be traced "back" to astrology...

Isn't this what I said by stating the Bible was first displayed in the zodiac?

errr.... not under the connotation you want...
The stars are there.
People look up and see figures, then they make up stories about the interaction of these figures and how they move in the (night) sky.... sometimes, they even take into account the year-long motion.
From these stories, mythologies were created.
Mythologies gave rise to religions...
Religions put down the stories as something truthful.... completely separated from the astrological source... and the rest is history.

Maybe you'd like to take a look into this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/argr/a...htm#page_3

(December 12, 2014 at 8:26 am)abaris Wrote:

(December 12, 2014 at 2:12 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Hence, tracing Greek mythology back to Babylon.

But you are aware that Greek and Messopotamic religions weren't the only religions in the old world? At least I hope so.

I clearly stated that polytheism came out of Mesopotamia, specifically Babylon since it was the "Holy City" of the time. Therefore every religion that is polytheist has it's origin from Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mes...n_religion

Quote:Mesopotamian religion refers to the religious beliefs and practices followed by the Sumerian and East Semitic Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian and later migrant Arameans and Chaldeans, living in Mesopotamia (a region encompassing modern Iraq, Kuwait, south east Turkey and north east Syria) that dominated the region for a period of 4,200 years from the fourth millennium BCE throughout Mesopotamia, to approximately the 10th century CE in Assyria.
Mesopotamian polytheism was the only religion in ancient Mesopotamia for thousands of years before entering a period of gradual decline beginning between the 1st and 3rd centuries CE.

(December 12, 2014 at 8:26 am)abaris Wrote: The piece I quoted wasn't from either of them, but you obviously don't even know where it's from and lack even the basics to look it up. Also mentioning Adonis is a little bit on the funny side, since he has more in common with your lord and savious than a name.

I was into mythology as a child, especially Norse mythology. If you want me to connect Norse mythology specifically to Babylon, fine.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/normyth.html

Quote:ODIN was the great Norse war god. The Assyrians and Babylonians also had a war god known as 'ADON,' and the Greeks later had a god named 'ADONIS,' as well. The Babylonish Adon was the god of WINE. In the NORSE ELDER EDDA we are told that Odin ate no food but wine: "The illustrious father of armies, with his own hand, fattens his two wolves, but the victorious Odin takes no other nourishment to himself than what arises from the unintermittent quaffing of wine. For 'tis with WINE ALONE that Odin in arms renowned is nourished forever."

Which should be no surprise because the Germanic language can be traced back to Mesopotamia (I believe we all know the story of the tower of Babel).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Quote:The Indo-European languages are a family of several hundred related languages and dialects.

Quote:Indo-European languages are spoken by almost 3 billion native speakers, the largest number by far for any recognised language family. Of the 20 languages with the largest numbers of native speakers according to SIL Ethnologue, 12 are Indo-European: Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, German, Sindhi, Punjabi, Marathi, French, Urdu, and Italian, accounting for over 1.7 billion native speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

Quote:The Anatolian hypothesis is that the Indo-European languages spread peacefully into Europe from Asia Minor from around 7000 BCE with the advance of farming (wave of advance).

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(December 12, 2014 at 9:30 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(December 12, 2014 at 12:05 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Isn't this what I said by stating the Bible was first displayed in the zodiac?

errr.... not under the connotation you want...
The stars are there.
People look up and see figures, then they make up stories about the interaction of these figures and how they move in the (night) sky.... sometimes, they even take into account the year-long motion.
From these stories, mythologies were created.
Mythologies gave rise to religions...
Religions put down the stories as something truthful.... completely separated from the astrological source... and the rest is history.

Maybe you'd like to take a look into this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/argr/a...htm#page_3

As I said before, the prophecy of a coming messiah has been around since the beginning. The mythologies are perversions of the original story. Kinda like how the Mormon religion is a perversion of Christianity.

What happened is people either elevated themselves or were elevated to God status. If you do some research you'll find that those ancient "gods" were actual people.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/normyth.html

Quote:The central figure of Norse Mythology is the hero known as ODIN. He is believed to he an historic figure, the king who led his tribes northwestward from their former residence in a city called Asgard to their new home in Western Europe. Asgard literally means "city of God," and perhaps by implication, "the city of God's people." Although it has never been identified by archaeologists, it is believed to have been located either in southern Russia or Northern Assyria, placing it in the region where the ten tribes were lost to history. After Odin's death, his great deeds were expanded until he took on godhood in the folk memory of the people. But it is important to note that the name "Odin" shows unmistakable evidence of a Babylonian origin.

(December 12, 2014 at 11:10 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I clearly stated that polytheism came out of Mesopotamia, specifically Babylon since it was the "Holy City" of the time. Therefore every religion that is polytheist has it's origin from Babylon.

Oh, the Bullshit force is very strong with this one. Doesn't warrant to read the rest of this post.

But in the meantime riddle me this. I'm rather curious if you even get where it came from.

(December 12, 2014 at 11:10 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(December 12, 2014 at 9:30 am)pocaracas Wrote: errr.... not under the connotation you want...
The stars are there.
People look up and see figures, then they make up stories about the interaction of these figures and how they move in the (night) sky.... sometimes, they even take into account the year-long motion.
From these stories, mythologies were created.
Mythologies gave rise to religions...
Religions put down the stories as something truthful.... completely separated from the astrological source... and the rest is history.

Maybe you'd like to take a look into this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/argr/a...htm#page_3

As I said before, the prophecy of a coming messiah has been around since the beginning. The mythologies are perversions of the original story. Kinda like how the Mormon religion is a perversion of Christianity.

What happened is people either elevated themselves or were elevated to God status. If you do some research you'll find that those ancient "gods" were actual people.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/normyth.html

Quote:The central figure of Norse Mythology is the hero known as ODIN. He is believed to he an historic figure, the king who led his tribes northwestward from their former residence in a city called Asgard to their new home in Western Europe. Asgard literally means "city of God," and perhaps by implication, "the city of God's people." Although it has never been identified by archaeologists, it is believed to have been located either in southern Russia or Northern Assyria, placing it in the region where the ten tribes were lost to history. After Odin's death, his great deeds were expanded until he took on godhood in the folk memory of the people. But it is important to note that the name "Odin" shows unmistakable evidence of a Babylonian origin.

Wut?!!
Who's talking about norse mythology?!
I mean all mythologies... norse included, of course... but the norse one is a latecomer.
The earliest known was from Mesopotamia.... then Egypt... Greece... go for those.

(December 12, 2014 at 12:13 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 12, 2014 at 11:10 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I clearly stated that polytheism came out of Mesopotamia, specifically Babylon since it was the "Holy City" of the time. Therefore every religion that is polytheist has it's origin from Babylon.

Oh, the Bullshit force is very strong with this one. Doesn't warrant to read the rest of this post.

Look, I posted all the info you asked for and my sources, if you refuse to even examine the data then why am I wasting my time?

(December 12, 2014 at 12:22 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Look, I posted all the info you asked for and my sources, if you refuse to even examine the data then why am I wasting my time?

You asked me to study history of religion, which is kind of funny, since I studied history at university. As opposed to you I know how to use sources and to make a distinction between valid and invalid or hearsay.

And as opposed to you, I don't carry the baggage of believing the earth only to be 6000 years old. Btw, that statue is between 22.000 and 28.000 years old and was found in 1912 at the Austrian village of Willendorf.

(December 12, 2014 at 12:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Wut?!!
Who's talking about norse mythology?!
I mean all mythologies... norse included, of course... but the norse one is a latecomer.
The earliest known was from Mesopotamia.... then Egypt... Greece... go for those.

maybe you haven't been paying attention to what I've been saying this whole time.

My earlier quote

(December 11, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The establishment of Babel (Babylon, a great civilization of ancient times), ushered in Polytheism which spread from Babel into Egypt, from Egypt to Greece, and from Greece into the world.

My point is, every polytheistic religion can be traced back to Babel.

---

(December 12, 2014 at 12:27 pm)abaris Wrote: You asked me to study history of religion, which is kind of funny, since I studied history at university. As opposed to you I know how to use sources and to make a distinction between valid and invalid or hearsay.

And as opposed to you, I don't carry the baggage of believing the earth only to be 6000 years old. Btw, that statue is between 22.000 and 28.000 years old and was found in 1912 at the Austrian village of Willendorf.

Please reference anywhere where I claimed the earth was 6000 years old...

Also feel free to go ahead and debunk everything I posted, it's called a discussion.....

(December 12, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(December 12, 2014 at 12:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Wut?!!
Who's talking about norse mythology?!
I mean all mythologies... norse included, of course... but the norse one is a latecomer.
The earliest known was from Mesopotamia.... then Egypt... Greece... go for those.

maybe you haven't been paying attention to what I've been saying this whole time.

My earlier quote

(December 11, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The establishment of Babel (Babylon, a great civilization of ancient times), ushered in Polytheism which spread from Babel into Egypt, from Egypt to Greece, and from Greece into the world.

My point is, every polytheistic religion can be traced back to Babel.

Maybe I'm having some anachronism... but... I don't think that's what I was arguing with...
It was with the way you said something about the bible.... here:

(December 12, 2014 at 12:05 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(December 11, 2014 at 6:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I'd guess that every religion can be traced "back" to astrology...

Isn't this what I said by stating the Bible was first displayed in the zodiac?

You make it sound like the contents of the book were laid out on the heavens so as to tall mankind the story of the god... which would be cool... but absurd.
When it is apparent that it was mankind looking up, pattern seeking and all, finding images there which would then be incorporated into their own imaginations, questions and fears.

IF we're both saying the same thing, then we're cool!

(December 12, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Also feel free to go ahead and debunk everything I posted, it's called a discussion.....

You're mixing facts with fiction to suit your needs. Some of your links are valid, some aren't. Like the bible thumper one. This for example is absolute unfounded horseshit only existing outside of any scientific approach.

Quote: I believe that it does, and that these peoples can trace their descent from the Biblical lost tribes of the House of Israel, removed out of their land in Assyrian captivity two thousand seven hundred years ago, and lost to recorded history. The Caucasian peoples, including the Norse, migrated out of Asia into Europe in the early pre-Christian centuries, and have fulfilled many of the prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments concerning Israel in the latter days. Let's begin our study in the foremost prophetic book of the New Testament, Revelation.

Then we have the migration thingy. You do understand the difference between hypothesis and theory? This is still a hypothesis. Not shared by the whole science community and much debated, even within the group[/quote] putting their money on it. This is from your link.

Quote: While we see substantial genetic and archaeological evidence for an Indo-European migration originating in the southern Russian steppes, there is little evidence for a similarly massive Indo-European migration from the Middle East to Europe. One possibility is that, as a much earlier migration (8,000 years old, as opposed to 4,000), the genetic signals carried by Indo-European-speaking farmers may simply have dispersed over the years. There is clearly some genetic evidence for migration from the Middle East, as Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues showed, but the signal is not strong enough for us to trace the distribution of Neolithic languages throughout the entirety of Indo-European-speaking Europe.

Bold by me: Signal isn't strong enough to make it into a theory.

Last but not least, even if this migration has happened, they didn't move into a void. There already have been people there as archeological discoveries show. One of them the statue I posted, which is by all accounts and researches between 22.000 and 28.000 years old. So they were no savages either and already had their cults. There is no single point of origin for religions as every serious scholar will tell you.

(December 12, 2014 at 1:31 pm)abaris Wrote: You're mixing facts with fiction to suit your needs. Some of your links are valid, some aren't. Like the bible thumper one. This for example is absolute unfounded horseshit only existing outside of any scientific approach.

Apparently you didn't read it or you would have seen that the reference is not from the Bible, it is taken from one of the apocryphal books. Not Bible canon but still historical nonetheless.