(January 3, 2009 at 3:10 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: In what way?

Kyu

I mean that I think that its more difficult to make a friend online who you also have a "personal" relationship with than to simply have a 'friend' - for obvious reasons. You can't really have a "personal" relationship if you can't physically touch the person.

But you can get to know someone really well without having to touch them I think. And along with them really well. And respect them. And at least consider them a 'friend'.

And you can also have friends who you simply get along with, on the net. Since in my experience its a lot easier to get along with people online overall. This is for someone like me at least.

I find people tend to be too 'normal' offline. Its probably partly to do with the fact they all live in the same area and have similar backgrounds and hang around together in different groups.

I think there's much more variety on the net. And you can get to know a lot more people.

And I think the internet breaks boundaries - it brings people together from all over.

I don't need to meet someone to consider them my friend. If they're my friend they're my friend. Its not physically meeting a person that makes them my friend.

Because there are a lot of people who I DO physically meet who are of course not my friend. Its not like any one I meet physically is my friend.

Because its not meeting someone physically that makes them my friend. Its having a friendship with them.

And I can see that you, Kyu, define friends on your own terms as 'best friends'. And I used to be like that for years online. Now I consider someone my 'best friend' when they're my best friend. I can still consider people simply my 'friend' - it just means I like them a lot more than not. Best friend is best friend and friend is friend for me.

And I don't see why I'd have to physically meet someone to consider them my 'best friend' I'd just have to really know them enough and have known them for long enough.

Because I don't think physically meeting someone is what makes them my friend. Or even - at least for me - boosts them from good friend up to best friend.

I of course like to meet people 'in real life' (which I think is a silly term since obviously the internet is real life. We live in the real world).

But since meeting someone is not what makes them my friend. I think its a bit overated. I think meeting people 'in real life' is of course very important indeed (I do go out lol)...

But I think its second to friendship. Since simply meeting someone physically doesn't 'make them' your friend...

And on the internet I say a lot of things I wouldn't normally have to confidence to honestly say 'in real life'. And I find people on the internet on the whole to be a lot less shy and a lot more honest and outspoken than they are offline 'in real life'.

Probably for the same reason as me - you're less shy and nervous offline. Even if you're a naturally confident person - things that even a very confident person wouldn't normally say - they might say on the internet.

I can't speak for everyone - and not really for anyone, I can only give my own personal observations on the matter - but at least for me. I find the internet very comfortable.

And I tend to find 'real life' a lot more anti-conversation than the internet, in my experience. One of the reasons I think the internet is such a wonderful invention.

In my experience 'offline', 'in real life' - if people aren't too busy to talk they, at least usually, only have the time - or even are only willing to - chit-chat and they won't delve into deep conversation. If they do at all it seems to be a novelty and a special occasion.

Since on the internet it seems you can have a proper conversation almost any time you want - and there's a lot more people to choose from! You can go 'in depth' about things. Rather than just chit-chat when people actually have the time.

And on the internet it seems you can have a reasonable "argument!" on the internet without people considering it serious simply because you disagree with them! Either getting unreasonable with you or wanting to 'break it up' simply because of a disagreement.

I find it very boring when conversation is practically always about very very few disagreements or non at all - when its just agreeing or asking questions. Or the discussions are very mundane and chit-chatty. If you can really call them discussions. At most it seems to be just a bit of banter that is slightly less boring than chit-chatting all the damn time.

I think its the disagreements - and at least the WILLINGNESS to have disagreements - that make conversation interesting. And stop them from breaking off too soon - or from staying very chit-chatty (and in my opinion, very boring and repetitive when its all the time and the only real thing on the menu 'conversation wise' (if you can really call it conversation)).

I think you can converse about things and specifically disagree, argue and debate about things more freely on the internet - on average. If you meet a really good friend offline who has the time to, and is willing to, discuss with you maturely - and also if he/she wants to of course - then that is certainly NOT anti-conversation - its the opposite. When you're speaking about the quality!

But quantity wise, all I am saying with this point - is it seems to me that offline there are an awful lot more people who just want to Chit-chat than there are online. Or rather - online its a lot easier to find people who DON'T JUST want to chit-chat. And are mature and want to have a proper discussion, debate, argument, etc - and they aren't put-off my mere disagreement.

So that as well as the other points I made, are - well, - points I wanted to make that are my opinions on the subject. And how I think the internet helps break down barriers, etc.

Anyone that's enough of my rant. I try to elaborate as it is as much as I can - and I'm not sure how I could have possibly answered your question Kyu, in simpler shorter terms - WITHOUT, I repeat, WITHOUT - simplying having to answer several follow up questions over and over. And I might have had difficulty making myself misunderstood if I didn't post a bigger post somewhere along the way.

I think the answer to your question needs a lot of explaining from me! - since I have a lot to say about my experience on the internet - and I have done my best to explain it.

So apologies for the long reply to a short question - its just that I think it was a short question that needed a big explanation.

And I hope I've at least done an 'O.K' job at giving that explanation - an explanation of my own experience, views, opinions, on online and offline and the comparison between the two. Pros and cons, etc, etc, etc.

Rant ended.
evf

Well I obviously can't reply to every one of those points so I'll make only a few comments (haven't quoted massively otherwise the post would be ... you know ... immense )

(January 5, 2009 at 11:01 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: But you can get to know someone really well without having to touch them I think. And along with them really well. And respect them. And at least consider them a 'friend'.

I can be friendly with someone and I can grow to respect them and I am certainly not saying it is impossible to become very friendly with people online but, maybe it's me, maybe it's my age & experience; in my experience online friends drift away or some such and that, to me, is not the mark of someone who cares about me ... and caring (along with liking & respecting) are what friendship is about to me.

I do like a lot of people here for example, I respect some of their views as well but do I care? A bit perhaps but I don't see how I can care all that much without developing an aspect of the relationship that isn't really available online.

Yes the internet brings all sorts together but I find people real offline, grounding ... the internet is strange (as you say we say many things here we do not in real life), we hide behind alter-ego's, shoot people down far more aggressively online than we would in real life and in that sense it's a kind of weird alternate dimension with links to the real world but a limited effect on it. I'm not sure I'm explaining that too well.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that everyone I know physically is my friend.

(January 5, 2009 at 11:01 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Because its not meeting someone physically that makes them my friend. Its having a friendship with them.

Er ... isn't that a bit circular?

No I wouldn't define my friends as "best friends" ... I never really got how you can have more than one best friend (which is a bit weird coz I have 2 ... go figure) but yeah, I do define friendship as something meaningful, the others (those to whom I am a friend in the wider sense of the word and little more than acquaintances). It may seem weird to you why I take this stance but to me it makes sense ... I'm an all or nothing person, totally WYSIWYG and when someone is my friend I put my faith in them, I am utterly loyal, given the right reasons I would probably follow them through hell or high-water.

I don't share your experience of normality ... I have some of my best conversations offline and the only reason I prefer online is because I have resources I can use and because I don't trip myself up verbally and make myself look a complete tit (yeah I know I still can). My online alter-ego is far more confident and able than my offline reality ... in reality I have to box far more carefully.

Kyu

I have no religious friend, it´s not that common that people here are specially religious. The maybe have there own tpes of beliefs like faith or something, but there are quite many agnostics and athesits here.

But I don´t know if it would work to have a friend that would be a deeply believing christian or something like that.

(January 6, 2009 at 7:02 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I can be friendly with someone and I can grow to respect them and I am certainly not saying it is impossible to become very friendly with people online but, maybe it's me, maybe it's my age & experience; in my experience online friends drift away or some such and that, to me, is not the mark of someone who cares about me ... and caring (along with liking & respecting) are what friendship is about to me.

I do like a lot of people here for example, I respect some of their views as well but do I care? A bit perhaps but I don't see how I can care all that much without developing an aspect of the relationship that isn't really available online.

Yes the internet brings all sorts together but I find people real offline, grounding ... the internet is strange (as you say we say many things here we do not in real life), we hide behind alter-ego's, shoot people down far more aggressively online than we would in real life and in that sense it's a kind of weird alternate dimension with links to the real world but a limited effect on it. I'm not sure I'm explaining that too well.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that everyone I know physically is my friend.

Well I feel there is less pressure and certainly less "peer pressure" online than offline. So that helps you be yourself more.

Yes there are some people who have alter egos - but at least with my case - it gives me the chance to express myself - and have more TIME to express myself - more fully.

As I explained in my 'massive post' - lol - I think its often much harder to have more than chit-chat offline.

I myself at least can have much much bigger conversations, and more regularly, online, than offline.

Its hard to have deeper conversations - on the whole, on average - with most people offline. And much harder to find people to have those conversations with - who are interested in having them.

Online in some ways is more anti-social than offline perhaps. As some would argue.

But I CERTAINLY do NOT think its anti-conversation. I can have much more, and longer conversations than tend to go in depth, online.

On average, on the whole.

On the case of friends drifting a part online - for a start that might partly be to do with there are an awful lot more people to meet, and friends to have - TO drift apart.

There are indeed also cases where online friends drift a part because they turn out to be different to what you thought they were or whatever.

You can blame that on having known them offline - but I certainly do not think you always can. Because I think, after all, OFFLINE, 'in real life', I think its sometimes hard getting close to people because they tend to be a lot more secretive than online - because as i have said they are more shy and nervous. And its harder to tell people stuff to their face.

So I think it can be the case that its getting to know someone that makes them drift apart. Because its quite hard to make friends once you know them.

And I think OFFLINE you can often live in a comfort zone with people for a long while without actually delving deeper into conversation. Or if you do - not deep enough - Unless of course its a really good friend who you know very well - Since as I have said - people often feel -and are - more open ONLINE - as dp, and am I, at least.

(January 5, 2009 at 11:01 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Because its not meeting someone physically that makes them my friend. Its having a friendship with them.

Kyu Wrote:Er ... isn't that a bit circular?

That sentence isn't an argument in itself. And I'm just having difficulty explaining it without having to go into detail;

I am just assuming that you know what it takes to have a friendship with someone. To get to know them, have a good and friendly relatonship with them. It is, of course - not simply physically meeting them that does that. And I do not think it really adds to it other than just - being physically there with them! Because that's what it is.

Because these days after all you can also do sound and picture (webcam, etc) without meeting.

I think physically meeting someone adds to the occasion. But I'd much more likely consider someone my friend, or even best friend, if I got to know them by even just chatting with text, let alone also voice and video - than having physically meet them but not only not write or text, but not hear or see them either.

I think there are many advantages to the internet. The disadvantage is just that you can't physically meet people. And its a very big 'just'. But I think that physically meeting people takes a back seat to having conversations with them, and getting to know them.

You can of course do both OFFLINE. But I have already explained my opinion on the differences, pros and cons, differences in freedom and openness, and time to discuss, etc, etc.

And I think physically meeting someone is not the most important thing of all. I think its conversation and being open. And being less nervous and shy. And feeling like yourself and not afraid to express your opinion. Being willing to disagree and having the time to have a proper conversation. And getting to know an awful lot more people.

Is what is most important in friendship -to me. But that's just my view. And it comes from being online from since I was 13 till 18 (when I then had a 2 year break because I lost comp, etc, its a long (and frustrating) story that I'm not going to go into. At least for the now :S)

And then since about september I've been online again.

And I've been touch typing since I was 6 years old - so yes - I am total computer Geek. But I should know more about the technical stuff really lol - programming, and computer maintenance (I did a course on computer maintenance and got over 95%, it was either 96, or 98 %. But then I forgot every single thing I learnt apart from one thing. And now I've forgot what that one thing is too).

But I've just spent my years gaming on computer really LOL. And meeting people online. Now I'm doing some foruming (the vast, vast, majority here) and making and listening to music more. And then there's a bit of youtube and the like.

Kyu Wrote:No I wouldn't define my friends as "best friends" ... I never really got how you can have more than one best friend (which is a bit weird coz I have 2 ... go figure) but yeah, I do define friendship as something meaningful, the others (those to whom I am a friend in the wider sense of the word and little more than acquaintances). It may seem weird to you why I take this stance but to me it makes sense ... I'm an all or nothing person, totally WYSIWYG and when someone is my friend I put my faith in them, I am utterly loyal, given the right reasons I would probably follow them through hell or high-water.

For all my years online gaming. I was all or nothing. Then (after years) I seemed to just I start considering people who I just got on with to be my friends. Because I had a great time with them. And even though I didn't know a lot of them full enough to really consider them my "friend". I kind of did anyway because they'd only ever been good to me and I got on really well with them.

So in principal some "friends" I may not actually 'know enough' and know them 'deep enough' to consider them my friends in principal. - but they certainly are in practice.

I can't know everything about someone even if they're OFFLINE. Because like I said people are often a lot more shy and keep a lot more secrets offline than online.

Online the truth often seems to come out. And sometimes its weird alter-ego bullshit. But why would people do that? Are they faking the whole thing? Or are they just honestly expressing themselves but they're not sure how to go about it? So they express it in a 'weird' way ( different to offline). That depends on the situation and the person I'm guessing.

Kyu Wrote:I don't share your experience of normality ... I have some of my best conversations offline and the only reason I prefer online is because I have resources I can use and because I don't trip myself up verbally and make myself look a complete tit (yeah I know I still can). My online alter-ego is far more confident and able than my offline reality ... in reality I have to box far more carefully.

Well of course if you have a really good friend - and/or some really good friends - who has/have time to have some really good conversations with you. That would be better offline.

But as I said I mean on the whole. On average. Offline a lot of people seem to only have time for a chit chat - in my experience at least.

And those who I meet offline who do actually like a good discussion. Always seem to only have a few minutes to spare. Or an hour at most.

Since I can have a conversation with someone for hours on end online! Hours and hours. And I don't get that offline.

And I also 'meet' a lot more people online than offline. There's a lot more people TO dicuss with. And its very open to converstation.

And people seem to have a lot more time on their hands on the internet! They're not 'too busy to talk right now' a lot of the time. Or only really willing to have a bit of a chat.

And people seem to feel a lot more comfortable to disagree about things online, - and STILL continue with the conversation happily.

I think its really really boring if people can't disagree about things and still have a good conversation.

So do you mean on average, with people on whole, potential friends, like I said, - you tend to have bigger conversations with people? Or just your mutual friends?

Even really good friends OFFLINE for me - they're a lot busier offline than they are online! More time for conversations on the net for me! And a lot more people to have them with too! And more variety.
Evf