(December 16, 2014 at 10:50 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 9:30 pm)Drich Wrote: How many national governments does the United states have governing the country's affairs?
1
How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive
Judicial
Legislative
(3)

How many Gods are there?
1
Of the one God how many individuals?
Father
Son
Holy Spirit.
(3)

What is so hard about that?

How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive - 1
Judicial - 9
Legislative - 435+100+5+1=546
(556)

Of the one God how many individuals?
Father - I assume one
Son - I assume one, but then you got the Judicial branch wrong.
Holy Spirit. - I assume one, but then you got the Legislative branch wrong.
(3)

OK. I got this now. There are three separate gods that together belong to the god government. The father is the pres, the son is the court and the spirit is the law.

When all 3 combine they form voltron.. sorry sorry i mean godtron.. no no wait wait i got it this time god.

(December 16, 2014 at 10:26 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: That's falsely equivocating. To make the child older is to put humans and God on the same level. Compared to your God, we have the intelligence and capabilities of an infant or small toddler.

keep reading

Quote:Like I said, kids do crazy and irrational things sometimes. That would still change nothing for me. My father hates me. He has been pretty awful to me over the course of my life and has shut me out because of our differences, but in spite of all the anger and hurt I feel towards him, I still love him and want nothing but the best for him. Why can't God be like me? Am I wrong to not reciprocate his behavior?

keep reading

Quote:I would, absolutely. I would sacrifice my life for my child, without question or complaint, and I would never put my child in debt as a result of it. It's my kid.

keep reading

Quote:For this metaphor to work, you have to admit that God is not my creator.

God only created one man, from him produced one woman, everyone else is a reproduction of what God orginally created. In order to be considered to be apart of the "family" of God, one must elect to be apart of it as per the gospel.

That said I don't have a say in whether or not you are or aren't apart of God's family. That is between you and God.

Quote:I would like to think that I would risk my life to save anybody from imminent danger. That, to me, represents optimal goodness, a standard to which I should strive to achieve. I would do it to save your life, or GC's life, or Waldorf's life. I would do it to save just about anybody, or at least, I hope I would have that courage to act according to my convictions when it really mattered. I would never intentionally stand by and refuse to save anybody just because they didn't like me. As far as I'm concerned, you can't get much more evil than that.

as per John 3:16 the oppertuity for salvation has been provided for anyone who will accept it.

Quote:which is second to Love your Lord God with all your being. One can not hold to one and ignore the other greatest command, and still expect to be in God's Grace.

Ryan Wrote:That answer is not relevant to the question.

Actually it is.

Your answer to my question "why would God care about those who do not belong to Him?"

You answered with the second of the two greatest commands.
'Love your neighbor, or turn the other cheek.'

My response was you can't hold to the second of the greatest commands and ignore the first. (Love your Lord God with all your being.)

(Your answer does not apply if you do not abide by the greatest command.)

Quote:If God is the ultimate standard of goodness, why does he expect us to treat our enemies better than he treats his? That sounds paradoxical; we are expected to literally be better than perfect.

God does not say we are to treat our enemies as sons and daughters. This is what you want God to do.

Quote:So if a dozen hard core ISIS members wanted you and your family to put them up for a couple of months you'd be good with that?

Quote:Why is it that whenever I ask why God can't or doesn't do something, instead of answering the question, you ask why I can't or don't? Am I on God's level, with God's capabilities? Should as much be expected of me as of a being far more capable than myself?

what capabilities do you speak of? What can God do here that you can't? Change the minds/wills of others?

If we are to be left with our wills intact, then we must understand that there will be those who want to be with God, and those who do not. If one does not then why should God force that person to be a slave.

Quote:You always love to say that you are happy to answer questions about your God, but you sure aren't answering any of mine. Can it be that you are afraid of what the answers imply?

I fear nothing concerning answering question pertaining to God/what I know of Him.
I ask you questions because the answers to your questions are indeed found in the very same nature you share with God. (As man was created in His image, and you are a copy/reproduction of that man.) Meaning we share emotion, core values, and feelings. I ask these questions to tap into these core values/feelings, like the preservation of you and your family. The desire to keep you and yours safe from those who wish you or your harm.

God has already done this (seperate his from those who wish Him or His ill) when lucifer and 1/3 of the angel population was cast out. Jesus speaks of the comming seperation in several different parables. Wheat weeds, sheep goats, wheat chaff ect..

I asked you about keeping ISIS members with your family would be akin of God dragging people into heaven who has no wish of serving Him or with those who truly wish and serve Him For eternity. Eternity is a long time to do anything. IF you hate doing something IMagine doing it for eternity for a boss you hate. How long before you go all ISIS on your supervisor?

So that beggs the question. Why would God put a potential time bomb in with His family?

He wouldn't no more than you would... Just look at the lengths you were claiming to go for your family in the beginning of this post. God went further/the cross.

I might be presumptuous in saying so, but I think if your going to do whatever it takes to save your kid this would include keeping terrorist/time bombs away from those you love.

Why would you think God who has already gone the extra mile not go the extra mile in protecting those who belong to Him?[/quote]

---

(December 16, 2014 at 10:50 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 9:30 pm)Drich Wrote: How many national governments does the United states have governing the country's affairs?
1
How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive
Judicial
Legislative
(3)

How many Gods are there?
1
Of the one God how many individuals?
Father
Son
Holy Spirit.
(3)

What is so hard about that?

How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive - 1
Judicial - 9
Legislative - 435+100+5+1=546
(556)

Of the one God how many individuals?
Father - I assume one
Son - I assume one, but then you got the Judicial branch wrong.
Holy Spirit. - I assume one, but then you got the Legislative branch wrong.
(3)

OK. I got this now. There are three separate gods that together belong to the god government. The father is the pres, the son is the court and the spirit is the law.

Strawman:

I specifically spoke to the branches of goverment not the indivisuals makes up those branches. The analogy I used spoke to title and governing authority. If you wish to have a honest discussion then stick to what was written.

---

(December 16, 2014 at 11:08 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 10:50 pm)IATIA Wrote: How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive - 1
Judicial - 9
Legislative - 435+100+5+1=546
(556)

Of the one God how many individuals?
Father - I assume one
Son - I assume one, but then you got the Judicial branch wrong.
Holy Spirit. - I assume one, but then you got the Legislative branch wrong.
(3)

OK. I got this now. There are three separate gods that together belong to the god government. The father is the pres, the son is the court and the spirit is the law.

When all 3 combine they form voltron.. sorry sorry i mean godtron.. no no wait wait i got it this time god.

I knew there was something wrong with you from your first post. Now I know what it is... Your a voltronII guy. (The only voltron where thier was three robots.)

(December 16, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Drich Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 10:50 pm)IATIA Wrote: How many branches of the one government does the government have?
Executive - 1
Judicial - 9
Legislative - 435+100+5+1=546
(556)

Of the one God how many individuals?
Father - I assume one
Son - I assume one, but then you got the Judicial branch wrong.
Holy Spirit. - I assume one, but then you got the Legislative branch wrong.
(3)

OK. I got this now. There are three separate gods that together belong to the god government. The father is the pres, the son is the court and the spirit is the law.

Strawman:

I specifically spoke to the branches of goverment not the indivisuals makes up those branches. The analogy I used spoke to title and governing authority. If you wish to have a honest discussion then stick to what was written.

Not! Try again. Which is it, individuals or groups?

(December 14, 2014 at 11:03 am)Drich Wrote:

(December 14, 2014 at 10:40 am)IATIA Wrote: Got your attention.

Just wondering, if god knows everything and took human form intending to be crucified, is not that tantamount to suicide?

Is a mother rushing out into traffic to save a child considered suicide?
What about a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his squad?
What about a firefighter running into the second tower on 9/11 after the first one collapsed?

Like wise Christ died to save us from death/eternal.

It might be if the mother pushed her child into traffic in the first place, if the soldier threw the grenade, if the fire fighter was the one who made 9 11 happen.

(December 17, 2014 at 12:09 am)IATIA Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Drich Wrote: Strawman:

I specifically spoke to the branches of goverment not the indivisuals makes up those branches. The analogy I used spoke to title and governing authority. If you wish to have a honest discussion then stick to what was written.

Not! Try again. Which is it, individuals or groups?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Again your arguement is based on a strawman fallacy.

My analogy, that means I get to set the terms that get compared. Not you.

What you did is take an element not being discussed, and created an argument, based on something you think you can defeat. Which again is the defination of a strawman.

Now that said your last post is an example of a red herring.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

(December 16, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Drich Wrote: keep reading

Keep dodging.

Quote:keep reading

Keep dodging.

Quote:keep reading

Keep dodging.

Quote:God only created one man, from him produced one woman, everyone else is a reproduction of what God orginally created. In order to be considered to be apart of the "family" of God, one must elect to be apart of it as per the gospel.

That said I don't have a say in whether or not you are or aren't apart of God's family. That is between you and God.

I keep asking "why does it have to be this way" and your responses are always just telling me how it is. Like I don't already know.

Quote:as per John 3:16 the oppertuity for salvation has been provided for anyone who will accept it.

Fucking dodging the question yet again.

Quote:Actually it is.

Your answer to my question "why would God care about those who do not belong to Him?"

You answered with the second of the two greatest commands.
'Love your neighbor, or turn the other cheek.'

My response was you can't hold to the second of the greatest commands and ignore the first. (Love your Lord God with all your being.)

(Your answer does not apply if you do not abide by the greatest command.)

I am asking you about God's behavior, and you refuse to answer that question. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Quote:God does not say we are to treat our enemies as sons and daughters. This is what you want God to do.

I don't believe, so desire has nothing to do with it. I am telling you my expectations, given that God is alleged to be the ultimate good.

Quote:So if a dozen hard core ISIS members wanted you and your family to put them up for a couple of months you'd be good with that?

Quote:what capabilities do you speak of? What can God do here that you can't? Change the minds/wills of others?

If we are to be left with our wills intact, then we must understand that there will be those who want to be with God, and those who do not. If one does not then why should God force that person to be a slave.

Yet another dodge. You're not answering my questions.

What could God do? Let ISIS members stay with my family and ensure that no harm would come to them as a result.

Quote:I fear nothing concerning answering question pertaining to God/what I know of Him.
I ask you questions because the answers to your questions are indeed found in the very same nature you share with God. (As man was created in His image, and you are a copy/reproduction of that man.) Meaning we share emotion, core values, and feelings. I ask these questions to tap into these core values/feelings, like the preservation of you and your family. The desire to keep you and yours safe from those who wish you or your harm.

No, we clearly do not share core values or feelings. That is the whole point of all those questions you dodged at the beginning of my post. Would you ever accept an EMS responder to refuse to save a person's life just because they were acting stubborn and recalcitrant? God is in no way put out or endangered in the act of saving souls, so please don't waste my time with comparisons like that.

Quote:I asked you about keeping ISIS members with your family would be akin of God dragging people into heaven who has no wish of serving Him or with those who truly wish and serve Him For eternity.

Those are not correct comparisons. You did not say anything about me holding ISIS members against their will.

So that beggs the question. Why would God put a potential time bomb in with His family?

Quote:He wouldn't no more than you would... Just look at the lengths you were claiming to go for your family in the beginning of this post. God went further/the cross.

That isn't true at all. I don't get resurrected after three days.

Quote:I might be presumptuous in saying so, but I think if your going to do whatever it takes to save your kid this would include keeping terrorist/time bombs away from those you love.

If I had the power to make sure those terrorists were no threat to my family, then I have nothing to be afraid of and no reason to say no to them.

Whatever, though. I'm really disappointed. This is the one time I've really tried to ask you serious questions about your god, and the few times you've even bothered answering any of them, your answers are evasive and always involve shifting the burden of responsibility onto the being who is less intelligent and capable. Why should God do it if I can't or won't? Because he's God, and I'm not.

If you were really secure in your beliefs, you wouldn't act like this. I suggest you have a lot of soul searching to do. I'll be happy to continue this discussion if you ever find the courage to actually question the things you believe. Until you do, there's nothing to gain from this.

(December 17, 2014 at 12:32 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Keep dodging.

Quote:keep reading

Keep dodging.

Quote:keep reading

Keep dodging.

[/quote]
I did not dodge anything. My comment to "keep reading" was to re assemble the larger point I was making in that Christ, like a parent who would do anything for their Child (as you would per your comments) would also do anything to save his followers. The larger point being that not everyone belongs to Him. (We are not all his Children) while He would/did do what ever it took for His followers/children it was not extended to those who do not wish to serve God.

I Wrote:God only created one man, from him produced one woman, everyone else is a reproduction of what God orginally created. In order to be considered to be apart of the "family" of God, one must elect to be apart of it as per the gospel.

That said I don't have a say in whether or not you are or aren't apart of God's family. That is between you and God.

Quote:I keep asking "why does it have to be this way" and your responses are always just telling me how it is. Like I don't already know.

Why does it have to be this way? The general answer is usally associated with the pride of man, but your specific answer lies with in your own heart. In that, Why can't you simply humble yourself and approach God on His terms?

Why does God allow the pride of man to keep Him from an eternity with God? Because pride will not allow a man to serve. Even if in service to God a man can obtain a level of dignity and stature that he could never obtain on his own, at the core one is still a servant/slave. And if there is one thing western soceity abhors more than anything else it is stereotypical picture of service/slavery based on how men rule one another.

So because pride will not allow a man to serve, the man in question will not be forced to serve, even if service to God would/could literally mean 'heaven' to that man.

What is the alternative to slavery/service to God? Eternal separation.

Why? Because being in any part of creation means being in the presents of God, which means service to God in some form or fashion.

Quote:as per John 3:16 the oppertuity for salvation has been provided for anyone who will accept it.

Quote:Fucking dodging the question yet again.

Again did not dodge anything was illustrating that Jesus/God has done 'whatever it took' by offering salvation to everyone per John 3:16. However offering does not mean everyone will accept the offer.

Quote:Actually it is.

Your answer to my question "why would God care about those who do not belong to Him?"

You answered with the second of the two greatest commands.
'Love your neighbor, or turn the other cheek.'

My response was you can't hold to the second of the greatest commands and ignore the first. (Love your Lord God with all your being.)

(Your answer does not apply if you do not abide by the greatest command.)

Quote:I am asking you about God's behavior, and you refuse to answer that question. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Again not a dodge. God gave two great commandments you cited the second as the only one having meaning. God tells us they comes s a package deal. Do one then The other. One can not seperate the two.

Meaning you can't say love your neighbor and hate God. Nor can one say love God hate your neighbor. Christ said you have to do both, or you do neither.

Again because you said God must abide in one command and ignore the other is counter to the nature in which Christ issued the two commands.

Not to mention I directly answered your question by saying you are expecting God to treat His enemies as family. Did you dodge this answer,. Why are you treating this answer as being seperate from the one above, or did you simply over look the fact that no where in the scripture has this been commanded? Or are you also turning a blind eye to the fact that Christ does indeed offer forgiveness to his 'enemies' all they need do is accept what has been offered? Your question was answered directly. If however you have another question or don't nderstand just ask, don't pretend you have been ignored.

Quote:I don't believe, so desire has nothing to do with it. I am telling you my expectations, given that God is alleged to be the ultimate good.

But again how can God be good if He allows those who hate Him and His servants into Heaven?

Would you consider God to be Good if He allowed Demons back into Heaven?

Given enough time (like say eternity for instance) resentment and forced service produces demons.

Quote:Yet another dodge. You're not answering my questions.

What could God do? Let ISIS members stay with my family and ensure that no harm would come to them as a result.

Again ONLY if He changed their will. God is not in the business of doing that.

Quote:No, we clearly do not share core values or feelings.

so you would force your wife and kids to take in a dozen hardcore ISIS terrorists?

Then let me ask you what good did it do you to say you would save your kid no matter how bad and undeserving he was if your going to invite the foxes into the hen house?

Quote:That is the whole point of all those questions you dodged at the beginning of my post.

again did not dodge anything. You are so focused in scrounging up a rebuttal your not looking at the bigger picture.

The questions I asked drew a parallel between the undeserving believer (the bratty kid who ran back into traffic, the teen who ran off/prodigal son) to those who believe. Why? Because none of us deserve all the trouble Christ went through, and yet He/Christ did (died on the cross to forgive our sins once and for all)/when back into traffic, took the prodigal back in.. Just as you claimed you would. (See I told you our core values were the same as God's)

The problem you are having is with the idea that you/all of humanity belongs to the group God offers attonement to.

Again Christ seperated us into two groups. Those who will find attonement on judgement day and those who do not. Those who do will find their Father to be God, and those who do not will know they belong to Satan.

So again, why would God allow demons back into Heaven, with those who were saved? Why would a loving father force his family to take in 12 angry ISIS terrorists, if He has done so much to save from drugs and traffic?

Quote:Would you ever accept an EMS responder to refuse to save a person's life just because they were acting stubborn and recalcitrant? God is in no way put out or endangered in the act of saving souls, so please don't waste my time with comparisons like that.

equivocation fallacy. For an ems responder to 'save' is not akin to God 'saving' a soul.

Quote:That isn't true at all. I don't get resurrected after three days.

Red herring does not address the point being made.

Quote:If I had the power to make sure those terrorists were no threat to my family, then I have nothing to be afraid of and no reason to say no to them.

think about this for a moment. If you had the power to change the will of man, why would you stop at ISIS agendas? Why wouldn't you make a stubborn kid eat his veggies, or clean his room or a wife to be a little less Nagy? A mother in law a little/a lot less mother in lawie? When you mess with the will of people then they lose the individuality God seems to prize from the garden forward.

You may not see this as a problem, but appearently God does. With that comes the really good and the very bad. His solution let people be who they want to be select those who want to be with Him and seperate them from everyone else.

Quote:Whatever, though. I'm really disappointed. This is the one time I've really tried to ask you serious questions about your god, and the few times you've even bothered answering any of them, your answers are evasive and always involve shifting the burden of responsibility onto the being who is less intelligent and capable. Why should God do it if I can't or won't? [i]Because he's God, and I'm not.

again big picture. I asked questions to personalize and draw parallels between your core values and that of God to show you that even if you are at odds with Him there is still a piece of Him with you. Now here is where I get to be disappointed. I have taken a great deal of time thinking out and pulling together a great number of points and perspectives with you here today. It's 2am and I have been writting since 12:30, going over and over and re explaining points you should have got the first time around if you weren't so busy just reading enough to build a counter arguement. Go back and reread what I have written. All the points are there. I have taken the time to answer everything. That may not mean you can see or understand it, but it is all there. I challenge you to stop posturing, stop looking for points for your next argument. If I give an answer you do not understand ask for a break down. I'm not looking to dodge anything. Matter of fact every time you said I dodged a question, you took a answer out of context. Intentional or not you are not looking at the big picture I am trying to illustrate. If you need simpler answers ask simpler questions. Know the answers I give are based off the questions you ask.

Quote:If you were really secure in your beliefs, you wouldn't act like this. I suggest you have a lot of soul searching to do. I'll be happy to continue this discussion if you ever find the courage to actually question the things you believe. Until you do, there's nothing to gain from this.

Your not really familiar with how Jesus taught are you?

While I am not anywhere as good a teacher as jesus I do use his methods.
?

Getting people to believe in a God, well that's pretty easy really. People don't like uncertainty. Getting them to believe you have gods handbook, well... I thought that would be pretty hard, but it seems not.

Convincing people that there is 1 God but also 3 distinct entities who are this one god, but who do different stuff and have different roles and even talk to each other... That is a hard sell. But here we are, having people trying to logically prove 1=3. Here, let me help you out:

Let a=b
Multiply by a: a^2=ab
Subtract b^2: a^2-b^2 = ab - b^2
Factorize: (a+b)(a-b) = b(a-b)
Cancel out common term: (a+b) =b
Since a=b: b+b=b
2b=b
Cancel out the b's: 2=1
Add 1: 3=2
Replace 2 with 1 as they are equal: 3=1

There you go. Is that more convincing?

(December 16, 2014 at 9:30 pm)Drich Wrote: Again God is a title not a name.

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

Three indivisuals
Father
Son
Holy Spirit

All share one title "God."

So they are three gods. Very well, then, I amend my earlier post:

If Jesus "put his deity aside," then he was separated from the father the whole time he was on Earth. And the notion of hell as a separation from god is a choice on the part of the wicked based on their rejection of god, which Jesus doesn't do. Thus his separation from god was not the same thing, which we know because he is able to use his godly power during his time on Earth (in which case it does not appear that he put his deity aside).

And the idea of a god's timelessness doesn't mean that three days in hell were literally like 3,000 years in hell. One would hope that the son had better control over his perception of time. Then again, if he "put aside his deity" those three days would have just been three days unless we assume that for some reason he decided to keep the part where a day seems to last forever (no DMV in those days to simulate that, after all).

(December 17, 2014 at 12:24 am)Drich Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 12:09 am)IATIA Wrote: Not! Try again. Which is it, individuals or groups?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Again your arguement is based on a strawman fallacy.

My analogy, that means I get to set the terms that get compared. Not you.

What you did is take an element not being discussed, and created an argument, based on something you think you can defeat. Which again is the defination of a strawman.

Now that said your last post is an example of a red herring.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Again, Not! I was attempting to understand your initial analogy. You attempted to compare two different groups. Analogies require similarities which you have failed to describe, obviously, ergo my confusion.