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December 31, 2014 at 7:03 pm (This post was last modified: December 31, 2014 at 7:12 pm by Godscreated.)
(December 31, 2014 at 12:06 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(December 31, 2014 at 5:25 am)Godschild Wrote:
Me thinks I smell foolishness, foolishness that come from a hater of what I believe in and run down my belief, nope it's hypocrisy I smell from you.
Sorry, but "Oh yeah, well you're dumb!" and "No, you!" are not rebuttals.
Quote:
Setting yourself above your fellow atheist I see, not a surprise, not at all.
Quote:Don't try to put words in my mouth, GC.
It's no different than what you do to me, so man up or stop putting words in my mouth, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, a wise saying.
GC Wrote:The information came from some of the most respected institutions in this country, just because it was found on a site you dislike has nothing to do with the validity of the information. But then you would argue with yourself just to say you won. Looks like your fun turned into a puddle of drool.
GC
Quote:This has nothing to do with what I like and dislike, GC. It's a demonstrable fact that conservapedia lies almost constantly, and distorts reality where it can; it has an ideological bias toward extreme conservative christianity. The guy who runs it outright bans anyone who writes from a viewpoint he dislikes; this is a place for what he thinks, not what's real.
Case in point: one of the few links that does work on that article you linked to goes to a study on religion and suicide, which has a conclusions section that, conveniently, conservapedia fails to quote, and there's a reason for that; the conclusions of the study run completely counter to the claim they want to make, that atheism inherently leads to suicide. Here it is: noting that atheists and christians have roughly equal incidences of depression, the study goes on to conclude that the reason atheism has a higher rate of suicide attempts as a result of that is that moral objections to suicide are so often religiously based, and therefore aren't present for atheists.
What the study actually says, GC, is that the difference between atheism and christianity, in this regard, is not a difference in overall mental health, since the two groups have the same level of depression. The difference is fear; the fear religion puts in you of going to hell, of disobeying what god wants. It's the moral objections to suicide, not a lessened desire to actually do it; it's not that christians just don't want to die at the same rate as atheists, it's that they don't want to piss off god. None of this, by the way, is mentioned in the conservapedia article, which is more than happy to tout the results, while ignoring what they mean when it gets in the way.
This is, of course, entirely expected, from anyone who actually takes the time to understand the history and makeup of conservapedia, and most likely unimportant, to those who don't care because what it's saying happens to agree with their agendas.
That info was there for anyone to read, it wasn't hidden, you found it right. That same info is in other studies and on other sites. There i so much back and forth on this issue, atheist say one thing and Christians say another. I found what I consider reliable sources form the quotes of institutions no one should have a problem with, I didn't care what sit it was found on. Actually that's the first time I've visited that site if my memory serves me correctly. I do not like using most sites on the net because of the bias from both sides of any issue and I mean any. You use Quotes from biased sites, yet for you that seems to be okay, double standards have been a signature with you, it's why I do not like to converse with you. Just like this study it shows things that are true about atheist but, instead of considering helping to change things you want to deny it so you want look bad. Know what it's not about looking bad, it's about getting things better.
As for the fear thing, you're expressing an opinion, so here's mine and it's from the perspective of knowing Christians, God teaches us to love life and to respect it and this is why the suicide rate for Christians is lower. When people believe human life is no more valuable than animals and animals are used for food and euthanize animals because they are either suffering or it's not cost effective to keep them alive or kill them for sport and ect. It's no wonder the suicide rate is higher among this group of people, when human life is seen no more valuable than those we kill for various reasons, this is my greatest beef with evolution. Human life has a much greater importance than any animal.
GC
(December 31, 2014 at 10:53 am)abaris Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='832149' dateline='1420017942']
The information came from some of the most respected institutions in this country, just because it was found on a site you dislike has nothing to do with the validity of the information. But then you would argue with yourself just to say you won. Looks like your fun turned into a puddle of drool.
GC
Yeah, but they don't link to the actual study, which is supposed to be more than ten years old by the way. You would take info from an outspoken atheist site with the same bag of salt as we are taking conservapedia, a portal that's pretty outspoken about it's agenda.
The only reason I used it was the reputation of the institutions, there were atheist and Christian sites I did not use because of the bias factor, neither had statements from such great institutions.
GC
(December 31, 2014 at 10:56 am)Drich Wrote:
(December 30, 2014 at 2:27 pm)Strider Wrote:
One of the most corrosive elements of Christianity is its assertions regarding the inherent worth of humanity. This psychologically damaging and twisted concept is endemic within the Christian faith. One of the most well-known hymns, "Amazing Grace", describes humans as wretches in need of saving. Faithfuls constantly claim that they aren't worthy of god's love yet he loves them regardless, such is his magnanimous nature. Christians believe that they constantly fail, fall short of the glory of god, despite any and all positive actions. Evangelicals make self-deprecating statements such as this one from an AFA mouthpiece:
He actually believes he deserves hell, deserves eternal punishment for merely existing. Furthermore, he believes that he does not deserve happiness or any of the other positive aspects of his life. Consider how utterly devastating those statements would be to a person with depression of any degree. How many people live their lives feeling shame and unworthiness for simply being alive because of the harmful Christian view of self-worth and self-esteem?
Self-esteem is viewed as particularly troublesome because some attribute this to pride, the presumed stumbling block to those trying to lead godly lives. Others like to tap dance around the concept of self-esteem saying that it's fine to have self-esteem as long as it stems from a person's identity in Christ rather than perceived notions of personal qualities and actions. However, this view is nearly as acidic because it teaches the individual that acknowledging his/her good qualities and positive actions is prideful, thus bad.
This toxic mindset is detrimental to day-to-day living, relationships, marriage, and so much more. This message promotes the idea that a person can be of no worth acting on his or her own without god; "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
The inherent shame and guilt that must come with Christianity if one is to follow it faithfully is poisonous, absolutely poisonous. Even if I were not an atheist, this sole concept of the self would be enough for me to abandon Christianity as the hateful, harmful, and revolting dogma that it is.
When I heard the song amazing grace for the first time I wondered why he thought so poorly of himself, as did the author of your artical. The difference? I did not stop at just the curiosity I had, and my initial conclusion. Every chance I got I'd ask someone about that song and who wrote and and why he was so down. I got the platitude christian answer more than a few times, but then I asked the right person once and he turned me on to a version of this this: http://www.anointedlinks.com/amazing_grace.html
The dude was a slave trader, and found Christ. His song, his lament was because he saw the contrast between the pain and suffering he caused and the life Christ called him to live. He saw himself as a 'wretch' because by every standard of man and God he was a wretch. But, rather than justify his sins he repented of them.
This thread is a perfect example of why 'moral' men will never know God. They think that their morality/self worth puts them in a position where it is not 'healthy' to repent.
Well stated, I knew the history behind the song and shame on me for not mentioning it, thanks Drich.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(December 31, 2014 at 7:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: It's no different than what you do to me, so man up or stop putting words in my mouth, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, a wise saying.
I don't put words in your mouth, I merely reduce what you've actually said to its basic gist, which is always so helpfully juvenile that I rarely need to do more. In this case, I can safely boil down this statement from you to a more pithy: "No, you!"
Quote:That info was there for anyone to read, it wasn't hidden, you found it right. That same info is in other studies and on other sites.
Yes, and the conclusions of the study directly contradict the conclusions that conservapedia came to regarding the same data. Did that- rather pertinent- detail elude you?
Quote: You use Quotes from biased sites, yet for you that seems to be okay, double standards have been a signature with you, it's why I do not like to converse with you.
Which quotes, from which biased sites, please? Or is bias just anything that disagrees with you?
Quote:Just like this study it shows things that are true about atheist but, instead of considering helping to change things you want to deny it so you want look bad. Know what it's not about looking bad, it's about getting things better.
No, once again, I'm merely pointing out that the stance conservapedia and you yourself are taking from these studies is not the stance of the researchers themselves, and that the thing christians have that gives them their lower suicide rate (moral objections to the concept) are not beneficial to them, in that it doesn't address the root cause of the suicides, which the studies say is equal among both groups. In short, christians may have imagined a reason not to commit suicide ("God will burn you in hell!") but this reason evidently does not address the underlying cause of the mental state which brings one to consider suicide.
If you actually think about it- I know, what a concept! - you would see that I'm doing more to help here, in pointing out that the christian "edge" in this issue is not the cure you're trying to make it out to be. Ruling out unhelpful or ineffective methods of combating a problem is much more constructive than merely pointing out that the problem exists, and then gloating that it doesn't affect your group as much.
Quote:As for the fear thing, you're expressing an opinion, so here's mine and it's from the perspective of knowing Christians, God teaches us to love life and to respect it and this is why the suicide rate for Christians is lower.
The suicide rate is lower- for imaginary reasons- but the depression rate remains the same. You've fantasized a band-aid to patch over a symptom, while the disease affects both groups equally.
Quote:When people believe human life is no more valuable than animals and animals are used for food and euthanize animals because they are either suffering or it's not cost effective to keep them alive or kill them for sport and ect.
So it offends your dignity, therefore it can't be true?
Incidentally, you've only partially described my position there, since there are certain aspects of what you've said that I agree with, and parts that I don't and would never partake of myself, if you're feeling tempted to call me a hypocrite here.
Quote: It's no wonder the suicide rate is higher among this group of people, when human life is seen no more valuable than those we kill for various reasons, this is my greatest beef with evolution. Human life has a much greater importance than any animal.
GC
Why is it of greater importance? Because you said so? Because god said so?
See, from an evolutionary standpoint I can say that humans are important, and I can justify that by pointing to our advanced consciousness and intellect, arising as it did almost uniquely from our shared animal lineage with every other species on the planet. Whereas you can just assert that we're more special, based on fiat nothings...
You may have a beef with evolution, but your reasoning is misplaced.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
(December 31, 2014 at 8:02 pm)Esquilax Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='832560' dateline='1420067000']
Quote:That info was there for anyone to read, it wasn't hidden, you found it right. That same info is in other studies and on other sites.
Yes, and the conclusions of the study directly contradict the conclusions that conservapedia came to regarding the same data. Did that- rather pertinent- detail elude you?
No they do not, you're expressing an opinion, more atheist take their lives than Christians period. Christians are not exempt from mental disorders and the study shows they handle it better. You can hold to your belief as to why, though it's not true nor factual. I live in the Christian community and so doing have a better insight into what they believe.
The OP was Christianity makes self esteem worse for Christians than the unbelief of atheist. The study shows this isn't true thus my argument against the OP.
GC Wrote:You use Quotes from biased sites, yet for you that seems to be okay, double standards have been a signature with you, it's why I do not like to converse with you.
Quote:Which quotes, from which biased sites, please? Or is bias just anything that disagrees with you?
You bring things in from atheist sites and evolutionary sites, both are biased in nature to Christian beliefs, but I guess this little thing has eluded you.
GC Wrote:Just like this study it shows things that are true about atheist but, instead of considering helping to change things you want to deny it so you want look bad. Know what it's not about looking bad, it's about getting things better.
Quote:... and that the thing christians have that gives them their lower suicide rate (moral objections to the concept) are not beneficial to them, in that it doesn't address the root cause of the suicides, which the studies say is equal among both groups.
You are contradicting yourself and the study, first you say the rate of suicide is lower in Christians then you say it's equal to the atheist rate of suicide, and I'm suppose to take your ideas seriously, especially when you are doing what the study and others studies say,"passing the problems onto others," mainly Christians.
Quote:If you actually think about it- I know, what a concept! - you would see that I'm doing more to help here, in pointing out that the christian "edge" in this issue is not the cure you're trying to make it out to be. Ruling out unhelpful or ineffective methods of combating a problem is much more constructive than merely pointing out that the problem exists, and then gloating that it doesn't affect your group as much.
The study by these institutions show Christians are not exempt from mental disorders nor suicide and it also shows that Christians can cope with this better because of their beliefs. The study shows atheist have no support in their disbelief because there's nothing in disbelief to help, disbelief is necessarily nothing. This is what the OP's about, right, that Christianity degrades the Christian's self worth and if this was true the suicide rate should necessarily be higher for us, but the reality of it is atheist have a higher rate of suicide.
As for gloating, that's been your signature ever since you've been here, you think more highly of yourself than even your fellow atheist and that's exactly why all the Christians here have a problem with you.
Shifting blame and/or responsibility is in no way helpful.
GC Wrote:As for the fear thing, you're expressing an opinion, so here's mine and it's from the perspective of knowing Christians, God teaches us to love life and to respect it and this is why the suicide rate for Christians is lower.
Quote:The suicide rate is lower- for imaginary reasons- but the depression rate remains the same. You've fantasized a band-aid to patch over a symptom, while the disease affects both groups equally.
Even if it were for imaginary reasons, which it's not, the fact remains that the OP is in contradiction to the institutions studies, the OP is nothing more than unprofessional opinion. These institutions are of the highest professionalism and their research stands as such also. The disease doesn't effect both equally, if it did the suicide rate would be the same, you really do have trouble with understanding this, don't you.
GC Wrote:When people believe human life is no more valuable than animals and animals are used for food and we euthanize animals because they are either suffering or it's not cost effective to keep them alive or kill them for sport and ect.
Quote:So it offends your dignity, therefore it can't be true?
It doesn't offend my dignity, it's against all I believe, human life will always be more important than an animals and if you can't see this you are someone to be feared in your judgment.
Quote:Incidentally, you've only partially described my position there, since there are certain aspects of what you've said that I agree with, and parts that I don't and would never partake of myself, if you're feeling tempted to call me a hypocrite here.
If I'm tempted to call you a hypocrite, what? What are the differences how is one to respond to something so incomplete?
GC Wrote:It's no wonder the suicide rate is higher among this group of people, when human life is seen no more valuable than those we kill for various reasons, this is my greatest beef with evolution. Human life has a much greater importance than any animal.
GC
Quote:Why is it of greater importance? Because you said so? Because god said so?
If you can't see that human life is far more valuable than an animals you are seriously callous, maybe heartless. God created us to have a relationship with Him and gave us dominion over the animals, that's the simple answer, yet something you want accept.
Quote:See, from an evolutionary standpoint I can say that humans are important, and I can justify that by pointing to our advanced consciousness and intellect, arising as it did almost uniquely from our shared animal lineage with every other species on the planet. Whereas you can just assert that we're more special, based on fiat nothings...
That's no justification, evolution shows no respect for any life being any more important and in conversations all over this site it's been made quite clear this is the effect evolution has on people. I've seen time and again evolutionist state that no one life is more important than another, this kind of thinking degrades human life, this is exactly what atheist have to deal with when believing suicide is the answer. Your expressed opinion of fiat nothingness doesn't match the study, however the bases of Christianity fits the study well.
Quote:You may have a beef with evolution, but your reasoning is misplaced.
My reasoning has been expressed by many evolutionist, even Darwin's father who proposed evolution in his writings before Darwin came to this conclusion. Darwin's father had no proof of what he was proposing, no scientific certainties just a belief, yep a belief system is the way evolution started and continues to this day. Deny this all you want but, the truth of evolution is out there and you can't get rid of it. Evolution is detrimental to man and his health.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(December 31, 2014 at 1:37 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Oh, please. I'm from East Tennessee. The friendliness is most often times insincere; the drug usage is immense, as well as alcohol abuse; I started smoking with my pastor's daughter who is now a coke addict and alcoholic, all while most of her time is spent in the church. Most of my "good Christian" friends of old are drug addicts, whether it's coke, oxycontin, or meth, among other things, and they all still consider themselves "good Christians". They go to churches all over Knox County.
My mom, who hadn't seen my dad in over a decade, came to his funeral to support my sister and me. Guess what she encountered at the church: most of the congregation ignoring her except to talk behind their hands about her.
There are a lot of reasons my last trip back to East Tennessee was to take care of my dad on his death bed. The biggest is that I have absolutely no use for the people there, for the most part.
I'm sorry for your loss, I loss my dad several years ago and my sisters church sent deacons to stay at mom's house while we were at the funeral home and the next day when we were at the grave yard. There was enough food from two churches to feed an army. There were more people at the funeral home than I knew were still alive. You see dad had out lived most of his family and friends, or so I thought. My mother had more support than you could imagine. My half brother helped mom by paying for most of the funeral. When my brother in-laws brother died, his neighbor and I help pay for some of the funeral and the church was of great support and service. You see my experience with East Tennessee during these tough times was awesome.
I grew up in north Knoxville and now live in Sevier county. When I first graduated high school, I was buying drugs from a preachers son and getting high with people that went to my church. You know what we grew up and many of us have become preachers, deacons and Sunday School teachers. I have friends who are dead from drugs in one way or another, others are alcoholics and drug addicts. This stuff happens all over this country, I have friends and family all over this country and nothing's any different, actually things are getting worse every where. It's all in who you choose to hang with, there are lots of good Christians in this area and there are those who believe they are in good standing with God, it could be a sad day for a lot of them when judgement comes. Hanging out with Christ will lead people to all those who care.
The reason there are so many drugs in this area has to do with the Interstate system, drugs flow through here like a flooded river. Unfortunately to many stop here.
My niece was addicted to oxy and she went to a Christian rehab in North Carolina, she's clean now and we work together to help people get into these Christian rehabs, it gets to be tough when they say no to a program we know works well, neither of us gets paid a thing we only want to help. I'm sorry you did not get to know the East Tennessee I know, you just might have found real people who care more about others than they do themselves. If you ever want to give it a try again let me know, I'll be glad to introduce you to the East Tennessee I know and love.
GC
I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
I'm sorry for your loss, I loss my dad several years ago and my sisters church sent deacons to stay at mom's house while we were at the funeral home and the next day when we were at the grave yard. There was enough food from two churches to feed an army. There were more people at the funeral home than I knew were still alive. You see dad had out lived most of his family and friends, or so I thought. My mother had more support than you could imagine. My half brother helped mom by paying for most of the funeral. When my brother in-laws brother died, his neighbor and I help pay for some of the funeral and the church was of great support and service. You see my experience with East Tennessee during these tough times was awesome.
I grew up in north Knoxville and now live in Sevier county. When I first graduated high school, I was buying drugs from a preachers son and getting high with people that went to my church. You know what we grew up and many of us have become preachers, deacons and Sunday School teachers. I have friends who are dead from drugs in one way or another, others are alcoholics and drug addicts. This stuff happens all over this country, I have friends and family all over this country and nothing's any different, actually things are getting worse every where. It's all in who you choose to hang with, there are lots of good Christians in this area and there are those who believe they are in good standing with God, it could be a sad day for a lot of them when judgement comes. Hanging out with Christ will lead people to all those who care.
The reason there are so many drugs in this area has to do with the Interstate system, drugs flow through here like a flooded river. Unfortunately to many stop here.
My niece was addicted to oxy and she went to a Christian rehab in North Carolina, she's clean now and we work together to help people get into these Christian rehabs, it gets to be tough when they say no to a program we know works well, neither of us gets paid a thing we only want to help. I'm sorry you did not get to know the East Tennessee I know, you just might have found real people who care more about others than they do themselves. If you ever want to give it a try again let me know, I'll be glad to introduce you to the East Tennessee I know and love.
GC
I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
January 1, 2015 at 9:21 pm (This post was last modified: January 1, 2015 at 9:25 pm by Godscreated.)
(January 1, 2015 at 4:48 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:
(December 31, 2014 at 5:25 am)Godschild Wrote:
I'm sorry for your loss, I loss my dad several years ago and my sisters church sent deacons to stay at mom's house while we were at the funeral home and the next day when we were at the grave yard. There was enough food from two churches to feed an army. There were more people at the funeral home than I knew were still alive. You see dad had out lived most of his family and friends, or so I thought. My mother had more support than you could imagine. My half brother helped mom by paying for most of the funeral. When my brother in-laws brother died, his neighbor and I help pay for some of the funeral and the church was of great support and service. You see my experience with East Tennessee during these tough times was awesome.
I grew up in north Knoxville and now live in Sevier county. When I first graduated high school, I was buying drugs from a preachers son and getting high with people that went to my church. You know what we grew up and many of us have become preachers, deacons and Sunday School teachers. I have friends who are dead from drugs in one way or another, others are alcoholics and drug addicts. This stuff happens all over this country, I have friends and family all over this country and nothing's any different, actually things are getting worse every where. It's all in who you choose to hang with, there are lots of good Christians in this area and there are those who believe they are in good standing with God, it could be a sad day for a lot of them when judgement comes. Hanging out with Christ will lead people to all those who care.
The reason there are so many drugs in this area has to do with the Interstate system, drugs flow through here like a flooded river. Unfortunately to many stop here.
My niece was addicted to oxy and she went to a Christian rehab in North Carolina, she's clean now and we work together to help people get into these Christian rehabs, it gets to be tough when they say no to a program we know works well, neither of us gets paid a thing we only want to help. I'm sorry you did not get to know the East Tennessee I know, you just might have found real people who care more about others than they do themselves. If you ever want to give it a try again let me know, I'll be glad to introduce you to the East Tennessee I know and love.
GC
I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
You care to point out what I said that was so bad, I'm serious.
GC
(January 1, 2015 at 4:55 pm)dyresand Wrote:
(January 1, 2015 at 4:48 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
This is why i enjoy being a godless heathen.
You might regret that one day. By the way you can ignore God, you can say He doesn't exist, guess what He is your God whether you like it or not.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(January 1, 2015 at 4:48 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
You care to point out what I said that was so bad, I'm serious.
GC
(January 1, 2015 at 4:55 pm)dyresand Wrote: This is why i enjoy being a godless heathen.
You might regret that one day. By the way you can ignore God, you can say He doesn't exist, guess what He is your God whether you like it or not.
GC
No one can prove god exists. God doesn't exist by the information we as human beings have learned from science and the natural world. So chances of there being a god are highly nill so you can say Generic theist threat "One day your going to meet your maker and your going to wish you believed in him". But its not really my problem if falls on the theist for not making a good point in believing with the natural world proves there is no god.
(January 1, 2015 at 4:48 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I see my point went flying over your head. You're exactly the type of person who keeps me from going back there.
You care to point out what I said that was so bad, I'm serious.
GC
While what you said in the post responding to me, in your sick, twisted way, wasn't comparatively that bad, it's what you've said during your entire stay at this forum. You're actually a great representative of Christianity in East Tennessee. Congratulations.
(January 1, 2015 at 9:21 pm)Godschild Wrote: You care to point out what I said that was so bad, I'm serious.
GC
While what you said in the post responding to me, in your sick, twisted way, wasn't comparatively that bad, it's what you've said during your entire stay at this forum. You're actually a great representative of Christianity in East Tennessee. Congratulations.
January 1, 2015 at 10:32 pm (This post was last modified: January 1, 2015 at 10:34 pm by Spooky.)
(January 1, 2015 at 10:22 pm)dyresand Wrote:
(January 1, 2015 at 10:09 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: While what you said in the post responding to me, in your sick, twisted way, wasn't comparatively that bad, it's what you've said during your entire stay at this forum. You're actually a great representative of Christianity in East Tennessee. Congratulations.
Well all southern baptists anyways.
...I thought it was "babtist"?
Edit: Somebody let me know if this is some sort of joke I'm not getting.
