If there is no try then where does your reasoning lead? It looks like superfluous incidental information to me

(August 6, 2010 at 6:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If there is no try then where does your reasoning lead? It looks like superfluous incidental information to me

I guess I don't get what you mean...

Are you saying that Christianity is meaningless if it means we can't save ourselves?

(August 6, 2010 at 6:39 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote: Alot of Christians don't like the idea of receiving equal treatment... it makes their good deeds feel... well...

Pointless.

Now, it is extremely rare for anyone to ever witness me saying this....but...I like you.

(August 6, 2010 at 7:03 pm)Ace Wrote: Now, it is extremely rare for anyone to ever witness me saying this....but...I like you.

I am flattered. Truly!

(August 6, 2010 at 7:01 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote:

(August 6, 2010 at 6:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If there is no try then where does your reasoning lead? It looks like superfluous incidental information to me

I guess I don't get what you mean...

Are you saying that Christianity is meaningless if it means we can't save ourselves?

Yes. Your belief seems to be naturalistic, in that you believe what we have is the best we'll ever get. there is no 'way' to follow. So what's the point? The bible serves only as a comment on how we reached this enlightened state. Yet how do you know that you are like God? After all, there is nothing to aim for. You are already perfect. Or do you strive to uphold Christian standards?

(August 6, 2010 at 6:39 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote:

(August 6, 2010 at 6:32 pm)Darwinian Wrote:

(August 6, 2010 at 6:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If you're already saved then there's no reason to believe or need to try? Or are you required to accept this to reap the benefit/s?

Does this trouble you Fr0d0? The idea of no-one writhing in agony for all eternity while you look down saying "told you so" :p

Alot of Christians don't like the idea of receiving equal treatment... it makes their good deeds feel... well...

Pointless.

Yes, without a thumbs up from god a good deed is a waste of time isn't it.

Oh wait.........

(August 6, 2010 at 8:05 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Yes. Your belief seems to be naturalistic, in that you believe what we have is the best we'll ever get. there is no 'way' to follow. So what's the point? The bible serves only as a comment on how we reached this enlightened state. Yet how do you know that you are like God? After all, there is nothing to aim for. You are already perfect. Or do you strive to uphold Christian standards?

There are two realms we're dealing with... eternal, and immediate. I never claimed that we reached a perfect state in this life... to the best of my knowledge, sin and death are undesirable (and by definition, perfection cannot be undesirable).

I am saying that in the grand scale of eternity, our actions on earth are ultimately meaningless, but if I go and punch somebody right now, I have little doubt that I will immediately experience the result of said action.

It amazes me that when the playing field is flattened, and Christians do not get better, but equal treatment in the long run... it seems to ruffle their feathers. I always thought Christians claimed that they were "not better than anybody else" and used phrases like "but for the grace of God, there go I".

(August 6, 2010 at 6:09 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote:

(August 6, 2010 at 5:47 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Why don't you begin by explaining what Christian Universalism is (for those of us too lazy to look it up)? Maybe fill us in on the things that you believe and how they differ from other Christian sects. What are your thoughts on the bible(s) and how literally they should be taken? Do you accept the Nicene Creed? Etc.

Oh... and what parts of Christianity do you enjoy making fun of? My personal favorite is Creationism.

Don't worry. Theists can get along just fine here. We (not most of us anyway) do not go on the attack just because someone mentions a word relating to religion. Heheh. In fact, most of us are quite nice as long as you are. If we think something you say is refutable, it will be refuted. If someone thinks it's stupid, that someone may tell you that. As long as you can remain civil and keep a good sense of humor, you'll find that the discussions can become quite fun.

Certainly! Christian Universalism, the belief that all are saved, is a belief that dates back to the original schools of thought in the early church. Infact, it was actually the dominant belief until the Roman Catholic Church emerged. At best, it is difficult to control the masses as the RCC wanted to do, without the use of fear and guilt... and the Protestant movement retained the view of eternal torment, as they too cannot fund their causes without capitalizing on these human attributes as well.

Proof for the conclusions that Christian Universalism hold are couched within original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic texts... many (including myself) reject most modern English translations as they are more Interpretations than actual Translations. Also, the infallibility of the Bible is rejected, as there are too many differing texts to pick one and go with it. However, the similarities between those texts are concrete enough to ascertain the meaning the author was trying to convey.

I know that scripture holds little to no merit here, so I won't spout it off like a loony, but I will say that the application of logic is another huge factor in most Universalists...

One simple example is Free Will. Logic would dictate that if a being exists that is omnipotent and omnipresent, Free Will cannot exist. If that being is all-loving, hell as we understand it cannot exist. Etc etc...

Let me know if that's a good start!

PS. Depending on which version of the Nicene Creed you are referring to, I reject most of them... some of the original versions I would semi-agree with, but even as early as the 300's, Eternal Torment and other guilt-ridden ideas had pervaded the church... funnily enough, many of them have pagan origins.

The above underlined is untrue period. Your description of christianity does not match up with the teachings of Christ. How is it that your rejection of a good translation like the New American Standard
means that you follow the original text. In all of Pauls writtings I've not seen anything about everyone will be redeemed.

(August 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote: There are two realms we're dealing with... eternal, and immediate. I never claimed that we reached a perfect state in this life... to the best of my knowledge, sin and death are undesirable (and by definition, perfection cannot be undesirable).

So are you saying that your faith applies only to the eternal? In my reasoning, faith applies to me here and now, which is why I have little interest in Heaven and Hell, as those are comments on my eternal state. What applies to me now is of greatest importance, and the positivity of aiming to be like God is what convinces me to have faith.

(August 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote: I am saying that in the grand scale of eternity, our actions on earth are ultimately meaningless, but if I go and punch somebody right now, I have little doubt that I will immediately experience the result of said action.

So what does your faith mean to you?

(August 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote: It amazes me that when the playing field is flattened, and Christians do not get better, but equal treatment in the long run... it seems to ruffle their feathers. I always thought Christians claimed that they were "not better than anybody else" and used phrases like "but for the grace of God, there go I".

Why the attitude? I'm just asking you questions to try to understand how your world view is logical. Try not to pre judge

(August 7, 2010 at 5:50 am)fr0d0 Wrote: So are you saying that your faith applies only to the eternal? In my reasoning, faith applies to me here and now, which is why I have little interest in Heaven and Hell, as those are comments on my eternal state. What applies to me now is of greatest importance, and the positivity of aiming to be like God is what convinces me to have faith.

I never really talked about my faith... I'm honestly not much of a "faith" kind of guy, by the definition christians and atheists use... I don't believe in "blind" faith.

As to trying to be like God... as long as we are confined to the 3rd dimension, and have to use organic-based sensory to interact with our environment... Trying to be like God is like a gecko trying to sell car insurance.

Oh... Wait.

Quote:So what does your faith mean to you?

It's worth $124,279.12 ... that's how much it means to me.
(hey, everything has a price tag!)

(August 6, 2010 at 11:12 pm)youhadme_at_hellhole Wrote: It amazes me that when the playing field is flattened, and Christians do not get better, but equal treatment in the long run... it seems to ruffle their feathers. I always thought Christians claimed that they were "not better than anybody else" and used phrases like "but for the grace of God, there go I".

Why the attitude? I'm just asking you questions to try to understand how your world view is logical. Try not to pre judge
[/quote]

Sorry, that actually wasn't really directed at you. Didn't mean to be inflammatory.