I've been really glad to find this forum as I have found the members to be intelligent, well-informed and educated. The ideas that get tossed around, and the strength of logic and reason in the thread conversations, are hard to find elsewhere. Ok, so enough ass kissing, I say that because this doesn't seem like a group that likes problems without answers and I want to hear some answers to our problems.

A lot of the threads and discussion either revolve around or come back to religious intolerance and violence, when they aren't focused on debunking supernatural theories, and we all recognize the danger that religion presents wherever it goes.

For thousands of years people of all sorts of faiths have warred with and killed each other for their differences in beliefs. Corrupt church members and dictators have used divine right to enslave and keep down generations for centuries at a time. Obsolete dogmas have held back and violently punished any kind of scientific discovery that contradicts their texts.

Today the problems are pronounced, and it’s fairly obviously pissed a lot of us off! In the middle east Jews war with Muslims, Muslims war within themselves. In Ireland, Catholics and Protestants have been bombing each other for decades. In the US people have been and still are persecuted and ostracized for their belief or unbelief. Catholic stances on birth control and abortion are propagating the spread of AIDS through the world, and the power of the church has the power to abuse thousands of children with impunity. Moral stances based on illogical social norms criminalize victimless crimes and imprison millions disproportionately.

Religion causes people to stop thinking, to allow their assumptions to be faulty, illogical, and circular. Relying on faith stunts a person’s ability to question because that person has already made a conscious choice not to question critically and remain open minded to the most fundamental issues that perplex every single individual.

This is NOT a necessary state for humanity to live in. The knowledge is available and accessible, the reasoning ability exists, the technology and funding exist, to transform the global crises into a manageable solution.

But you know all that…

So my question is, what can we do about it? Is the gradual growth of non-religious people and the rise of foundations focused on the spread of reason and logic enough?

Is it possible to create a fully separate church and state? Is it plausible to believe that people will allow their government to act in a perfectly secular way that still allows people to practice their independent beliefs? How can that be reconciled with the requirement of many religions to proselytize?

The spread of logic and reason, as is being done by people like Dawkins and Harris, is a great start. But these groups appeal to a niche, most people who listen to them already agree or are only looking to start an argument. We have seen time and time again the hostility and ignorance so many theists approach the atheist community with and know how effective it is to argue against their beliefs.

The point of this thread is to start a conversation on what we, as individuals, a community, and citizens of a variety of nations can do to reduce the negative impacts of religion that we see around us.

As I said before, the spread of logic and reason is a great start, and I am of the position this is the foundation of secular development. The educational system would be an obvious target to reform, but I don’t think we could start there; the schools are created and administered by political and corporate interests that would crush that type of shock to the system.

I think there are more of the logical and reasonable people out there than we suspect. I think that most of these people are less active in public policy and less interested/enthusiastic about politics than religious or uneducated people. We need to motivate the logical and reasonable among us to speak out more often, become more politically active, and publicize the critical and real arguments for subjects of debate within this country. We need to get the word out that individual, personal morality is no way to decide civil discourse and administration. This is like what Dawkins and Harris do, but we as individuals and grassroots community members have access to a larger cross section of the population and are viewed with less anger than the most public figures.

So that’s what I think needs to be done, I have a few ideas on how to do it if that seems right, but what do you all think?

Am I overreacting? Is there a better approach; is any approach possible and workable?

I am so frustrated by the acts and history of religious institutions that I can barely stop myself from screaming at pastors I see on busses sometimes. This can’t be the only way the world can work, and there has to be a path from here to there. I don’t care what policies or politics might take place (well, I have my preferences but I’m ok with losing), I simply want our world to discuss things like adults; rational, reasonable, skeptical, adults.

I'm a Sunday school teacher and I try and spread reason, logic and tolerance. Unfortunately religion is full of people. People can be intolerant and cliquish and hatefull. It doesn't take religion to make someone that way, it's the way it was nurtured and taught. If you want to change religion it's probabl most effective to do it from within, with good intentions. If you want to abolish religion, it's best to do from outside. prohibition though is just another intolerance and banning anything seems historically to be counterproductive.

I don't care if one believes in a god.
I don't care if you think you must throw fruit in the volcano so it won't erupt.
I do care if you force others to throw fruit in that volcano and punish those that don't.
I do care if you force the sacrifices to become bigger and more elaborate and hurt the society you live in because last time the volcano did erupt even though you made the usual sacrifices.
I do care if you invade on the rights and protection of individuals based on nothing but an unsubstantiated claim.

You think your god is the right one? Fine by me. You think gays should not be able to get married because you believe your religion says its wrong? Not fine by me. You think women should be stoned to death for not screaming rape hard enough? Totally not fine with me at all. What one believes is not the point, how one acts based on those beliefs is where the danger lies.

So what do I do? I support secular humanist parties. I support groups that try to make a difference in the world, without forcing ones beliefs to change. The Humanistich Verbond in the Netherlands for instance, but also Doctors without borders, Amnesty International.

And if a religion surfaced that tried to make a difference , taught their beliefs and reasoning without action from that belief, and equally accepted all what would you say to that?

I'd say that is a pretty vague description. Could you be more specific?

(August 19, 2010 at 7:06 am)tackattack Wrote: And if a religion surfaced that tried to make a difference , taught their beliefs and reasoning without action from that belief, and equally accepted all what would you say to that?

I'd say good for them, but their god still doesn't really exist. But if they kept it to themselves, it wouldn't matter to me what they believed in.

Where to start…..

I think the main issue I have with religion is the presupposition they have that most science is wrong or in someway designed to “undermine” their beliefs. They will rally against new ideas or new evidence that in any way contradicts there holy book. It’s almost as if science is out to disprove them rather than just make discoveries!
I'm not saying all religious people here, just in my experience that is the case with a lot of them. Of course there are exceptions (Tacky for EG is at least open to debate ). But for the most part very religious people are distrustful of scientific ideas, methods and conclusions.
This I think is one of the main stumbling blocks for moving forward.
I’m naturally skeptical of most things I read/hear. So this attitude I can understand very well. Religion is skeptical of science. Fine by me, we should question things and not just take it on blind faith. But why aren’t they skeptical of everything? Why do they accept their religion as FACT over everything else?

This could be for many reasons. But in order to get people thinking rationally this needs to be looked at.

Could it be fear?
They fear that they may have put all their effort in to something that is false?
They fear that others of their faith will spurn them?
They fear being out casts from their communities?
They fear that the invisible sky wizard will punish them?

Personally I would love to see an end to religion. The older I get the more I come to think of it as a childish and ridiculous system.
However I just know it wont happen in my life time, I think we may see its power and influence decrease. I just don’t think it will die off completely for a long long time. Those in power will continue to preach to the deluded masses that their <insert chosen diety/> is right and true ect ect and the sheep will follow.

(August 19, 2010 at 7:06 am)tackattack Wrote: And if a religion surfaced that tried to make a difference , taught their beliefs and reasoning without action from that belief, and equally accepted all what would you say to that?

That would be pretty much one of them "miracles" you guys are always talking about. Religion is, was, and will remain a con game.

You know, people who try to sell the Brooklyn Bridge can at least point to a real bridge.

(August 19, 2010 at 7:59 am)AnunZi Wrote: I'm not saying all religious people here, just in my experience that is the case with a lot of them. Of course there are exceptions (Tacky for EG is at least open to debate ). But for the most part very religious people are distrustful of scientific ideas, methods and conclusions.
This I think is one of the main stumbling blocks for moving forward.
...
But why aren’t they skeptical of everything? Why do they accept their religion as FACT over everything else?

This could be for many reasons. But in order to get people thinking rationally this needs to be looked at.

Could it be fear?
They fear that they may have put all their effort in to something that is false?
They fear that others of their faith will spurn them?
They fear being out casts from their communities?
They fear that the invisible sky wizard will punish them?

I would like to add that I think exposure to the reality of what science and scientific methods really are is a big problem. When scientists make an announcement, typically the public will only see the findings, only hear about possible results or applications. They don't see the work, evidence, reasoning and strength of an argument, however weak it might in fact be or strong. I'd like to find a way to introduce they way scientists make discoveries to the public in a big way.

Religions ebb and flow. They feel very real when they are here, but when they are gone, people laugh at those who followed those religions as if they were simply morons. In reality they were thinking, rational people who had a lapse in reason . Think of the Greeks. Ne'er a more rational people, those Athenians. And very very religious. That time has passed and so will this one.

To minimize damage, we need to work for Atheists' Rights and have visual meetings until we are no longer considered fringe. In some places, one cannot run for office if one is atheist or even agnostic! Unfair.

We also have to use reason. Richard Dawkins made Tim Haggar look like an idiot, pure and simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr0RgqxadTI

Another idea for the very religious is to get them to dialogue with other religions. THen they can see that their "Truth" is not so cut and dry.

Be smart, be calm, and be consistent. Reason always wins out but it can take a darn long time.