Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
March 5, 2015 at 10:58 pm (This post was last modified: March 5, 2015 at 11:16 pm by Lek.)
(March 5, 2015 at 10:36 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote:
(March 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Lek Wrote: You guys talk about how the world is a cesspool, but then talk about how great your lives are as atheists. It never ceases to amaze me. You speak as if it's us christians who are not experiencing the fullness of life here because of our belief in God. Yes, I think that God can make a world like this, then accompany us on our journey here, and then take us home to him. We can have peace in this world.
Oh Lek, if I point out flaws in the world that pertain to our conversation about a God while on an AtheistForum, it would be very uncouth of you to imply that my ability to observe those things is a sign of my overall general outlook. I do love life, and I do live a fulfilling one. But that doesn't mean that I am unable to point out the flaws in this world if pressed to do so by a person who believes its reasonable to conclude that it was divinely created. Your response to my criticism did not address my point. Instead, you redirected my criticism in an attempt to make me appear as a negative nancy. I think you know perfectly well that my criticism was not a description of my everyday outlook, it was directly in response to your previous question and it was perfectly suited. Would you like to apologize and go for a re-do?
My answer to your question was "yes" as shown in bold print above. God doesn't have to make everything here perfectly comfortable to show his love for us. He can make a difficult world, bring us through our lives here and then give us eternity with him. If God meant the world to be this way to teach us to rely on him, it is not flawed, rather it's the way God meant it to be.
(March 5, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Sorry, but there is no difference between "god works in mysterious ways," and "he is the creator and only he knows why." It's the same thought in different words.
Okay, I won't argue semantics.
Quote:If so, I'd expect Christians to have lower blood pressure, fewer heart attacks, and less mental illness. But it isn't so. And while you seem like a nice enough guy Lek, your comments about life don't suggest a comforted man.
What do they suggest to you?
Quote:Even Jesus didn't do that. He lived poor, but he lived off of others. If everyone had done that or given everything away, it would be a very poor world in which no one had invented medications, let alone had them to give away.
Yes, Jesus did live poor and he did live off the contributions of others because he didn't charge for his services. Most pastors of churches today work for pay. Jesus preached the good news and healed the sick free of charge. He didn't say that we should all live that way, but he did say that we should not be lovers of things of the world. He never preached that we should not have professions or earn money, but that we should not overvalue our possessions.
Quote:Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for life. Jesus preached the former and had no sense of the later.
No he didn't. He taught us to love and care for each other. Teaching someone how to provide for themselves would be a caring way to provide assistance. Do you really think when he said to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, he just meant to continually give them stuff and never help them to help themselves. You interpret scripture more literally than any christian fundamentalist.
(March 5, 2015 at 10:36 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: Oh Lek, if I point out flaws in the world that pertain to our conversation about a God while on an AtheistForum, it would be very uncouth of you to imply that my ability to observe those things is a sign of my overall general outlook. I do love life, and I do live a fulfilling one. But that doesn't mean that I am unable to point out the flaws in this world if pressed to do so by a person who believes its reasonable to conclude that it was divinely created. Your response to my criticism did not address my point. Instead, you redirected my criticism in an attempt to make me appear as a negative nancy. I think you know perfectly well that my criticism was not a description of my everyday outlook, it was directly in response to your previous question and it was perfectly suited. Would you like to apologize and go for a re-do?
My answer to your question was "yes" as shown in bold print above. God doesn't have to make everything here perfectly comfortable to show his love for us. He can make a difficult world, bring us through our lives here and then give us eternity with him. If God meant the world to be this way to teach us to rely on him, it is not flawed, rather it's the way God meant it to be.
No apology? Very well, I'll forgive you anyway. So the way you reconcile the countless suffering of billions of physical creatures is the belief that the non-physical creator of both the creatures and the suffering "accompanies" us through it? This seems to square it all up for you?
(March 5, 2015 at 7:55 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't need to apologize for God.
Well, that question was aimed at Chad regarding how many Christians were currently be martyred. You're not the only Christian here, either.
As for the quote above, I find it amusing that you consider those genocides evil even as you accept those perpetrated or ordered by your god to be at the least acceptable ... at the same time you deny being a moral relativist.
March 6, 2015 at 1:57 am (This post was last modified: March 6, 2015 at 2:00 am by robvalue.)
Right, God ordered a lot of mass murder in the bible. He ordered city after city be wiped out by his "hero" at the time, for no particularly good reason. Just one example of an evil monster, but I could go on all day with other examples.
Have you read the bible in entirety Lek, right from start to finish?
Of course, these events mostly probably didn't happen at all, but that's irrelevant to the fact that your God claims credit for such acts and calls them good. Because he's on the side doing it. Like Hitler proclaimed. What's the difference? Maybe God was on Hitler's side?
Really, the only defence I see is "might makes right". God can do what the fuck he likes, because we can't stop him anyway. But ironically, we can stop him. It's happened to all the gods that proceeded him.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
God did this, God did that... You people...
The master architect built this whole matrix. His agents are everywhere to help keep the matrix in its current state of "fine, but chaotic".
He wants people to believe in those gods and keep fighting amongst themselves. It is post of the design. A perfect world was attempted, before, but it collapsed... Humans can't have pretty things like perfect worlds.
Some people manage to break free from the matrix, only to find themselves in much worse world...
Life in matrix is now inevitable. Enjoy it. It was made for you. For you to keep your mind busy...
(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: If your god actually existed, and the Bible (NT and OT) is any example of his behavior, he should be fought against with all humanity's might. Not worshiped.
I hardly ever consider the possibility that god is real, especially THAT god, but this made me think a little more.
I imagine the god of the bible being around today and broadcasting his demands to the world across all media. He sees the devastation of the 2004 tsunami but refuses to intervene, when asked about it on TV he brushes it aside like a politician 'it is my mysterious way'. When asked why he caused the disaster in the first place 'just follow me and you will get your reward when you die'.
The same being then demands that everyone must praise him or they will suffer eternal torture.
Actually visualising this for the first time made me sick in my mouth to realise that is, in effect, what christians worship. Sick - no other word for it.
March 6, 2015 at 4:40 am (This post was last modified: March 6, 2015 at 4:41 am by robvalue.)
Yeah, I've been thinking about Yahweh in exactly those terms for a long time, and it's why I am astounded that not a single person who believes he is real would stand up to him. They all fall down and worship him, I can only imagine out of fear.
If a human acted like that, they would condemn him instantly as the most horrible monster ever. But it's OK, because he's invisible and also he can just kill us whenever he wants. So suck up to him.
I really feel sorry for people who honestly believe that character is a reality, I can't imagine what a horrid mindset that must be to live in
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
March 6, 2015 at 6:40 am (This post was last modified: March 6, 2015 at 7:03 am by h4ym4n.)
(March 5, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, instead of providing a good reason why your god would do those things, you just answer, "God works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that solves it.
That's not how I answered the question. I answered honestly and said I don't know. He is the creator and only he knows why.
Quote:How does it work out for those who follow him? Christians die and suffer from disease at the exact same rates as people of other religions, or no religions. Christians that lived in New Orleans were killed, injured and lost property at the same rates as non-Christians.
It goes well for christians because we have comfort as we go through these things, knowing that God is with us, and we have hope that there are better things coming. As a believer I don't harbor a lot of anxiety over stuff like that and can live my life more calmly.
Quote:And this is the petty god that you worship? "I could save all these people, but they don't follow me, so, let them suffer and die".
No. Like you stated earlier, christians died, were injured and lost property the same as everyone else. But as I said above........
Quote:How can you not see that a god that would require worship in order to assure that "all goes well" for his creations, is despicable?
Maybe from your point of view. but I think we should give everyone his due.
Quote:Any god that would only reward those that follow and worship him, and punish all the rest of humanity, is the one that needs to apologize.
You just don't want to give God his due. That's called pride. You are right, in that in order to be his followers we must serve him.
Quote:You have sacrificed your own morality in deference to a god that behaves in ways you would never excuse in a human.
How have I sacrificed my morality? I'm not perfect, but try to live the most moral life that I can.
Quote:If your god actually existed, and the Bible (NT and OT) is any example of his behavior, he should be fought against with all humanity's might. Not worshiped.
You've got it all wrong, and I wish I could make you see it as it really is, but I'll let you have the last word.
(March 5, 2015 at 8:45 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Why would a god ignore women of third world countries who don't have access to doctors or pain meds?
He doesn't ignore them. He has instructed us to care for our brothers and sisters in the world, but we don't follow him. If everyone followed the teachings of Jesus, everyone would have needed medications.
(March 5, 2015 at 9:47 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I see. Just the earth then? So, you live on this planet, you see how this place is an inherent death trap for us (radiation, viruses/disease, tidal disasters, earth quakes, shortage of natural resources etc.), and you dont see any problematic implications this for a belief that this place is the handy work of a loving and omniscient deity with us in mind at the focal point?
You guys talk about how the world is a cesspool, but then talk about how great your lives are as atheists. It never ceases to amaze me. You speak as if it's us christians who are not experiencing the fullness of life here because of our belief in God. Yes, I think that God can make a world like this, then accompany us on our journey here, and then take us home to him. We can have peace in this world.
Why would an omniscient god entrust such a responsibility to man when it created man to be corrupt, sinful and evil?
god did have to kill off humans for being this way once. Then your omniscient god did it all over again with the same design.
March 6, 2015 at 12:47 pm (This post was last modified: March 6, 2015 at 1:00 pm by Lek.)
(March 6, 2015 at 6:40 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Why would an omniscient god entrust such a responsibility to man when it created man to be corrupt, sinful and evil?
god did have to kill off humans for being this way once. Then your omniscient god did it all over again with the same design.
Does that make sense to you Lek?
He didn't create mankind all over again. He allowed Noah and his family to survive and the race continued through his line. He didn't create us to be evil, but rather Adam chose to choose evil. Jesus came to us and redeemed us and through him we have the power to do right if we live by the spirit. So yes, it does make sense to me. He created this world for us to rule over its creatures and he's allowing us the freedom to do that.
(March 6, 2015 at 1:57 am)robvalue Wrote: Right, God ordered a lot of mass murder in the bible. He ordered city after city be wiped out by his "hero" at the time, for no particularly good reason. Just one example of an evil monster, but I could go on all day with other examples.
Have you read the bible in entirety Lek, right from start to finish?
Of course, these events mostly probably didn't happen at all, but that's irrelevant to the fact that your God claims credit for such acts and calls them good. Because he's on the side doing it. Like Hitler proclaimed. What's the difference? Maybe God was on Hitler's side?
Really, the only defence I see is "might makes right". God can do what the fuck he likes, because we can't stop him anyway. But ironically, we can stop him. It's happened to all the gods that proceeded him.
Actually, God didn't have to wipe out those cities to be a monster. If he hadn't killed them then, he would have killed them later, maybe by some horrible long-lasting disease, rather than a quick death by nature or by the sword. He's no more a monster to them than he is to babies that he allows to suffer today, and to every person who has ever lived and died. He could have made us all immortal, but the monster made us have to suffer and die before that happens. (For all of you who don't get it, I don't really believe he's a monster.)
