(March 7, 2015 at 11:10 am)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(March 7, 2015 at 9:09 am)robvalue Wrote: I was really surprised when I found out holocaust denial was "off limits". I think that's dumb and arbitrary. Why single out that one atrocity from all of history?

I agree that free speech gives people a free pass to make absolute fools of themselves and their beliefs, and that's a really good thing.

Of course free speech does not mean no consequences, and it doesn't mean it's OK to harass people or incite violence.

Well I'm not sure if holocaust denial is off limits in all European countries. Certainly it is in Germany. I think Europe has a lot of collective guilt over the holocaust. It is odd, esspecially considering that the whole of the Turkish government pretty much denies the Armenian Genocide or large parts of Russia still deny the Holodomor. Also equally amazing is the ignorance of these events in the west.

Yeah Holocaust denying is silly and if I'm not mistaken Australia has a similar law, I think someone was prosecuted for denying the Holocaust.

Curiously we are considering allowing Turkey in the EU despite the fact they deny the armenian genocide - Fucking double standard.

What if I deny that anyone has ever died? Would that be acceptable or not?

(March 6, 2015 at 3:43 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I had some respect for the organisation Cage and what they were doing. But now any respect I had is gone. Personally, I am firmly against 'freedom of speech*' if it means (religious) people who are determined to spread falsehoods/lies, such as those wanting to teach Creationism in schools or rewrite large chunks of history, and advocate hatred or violence against a particular group(s) of people are denied their right to speak. We cannot allow people who express such vile views to have their freedom of speech.

I completely disagree. If the ideas espoused are wrong, answer them. Censoring public speech because an idea is wrong is the same as yelling "shut up!" in a debate.

(March 6, 2015 at 3:43 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: *I am confused by people who claim they are all for free speech. I think most people on this forum would agree that religious people who want to their religion to be taught in schools (Creationism in science class) or go out to proselytize on the streets are out to deliberately mislead the general public, and their own children (child abuse in my opinion, because they are denying them a good science/history education). Free speech for one person and not for another cannot be called 'freedom of speech'. I think it's right to put restrictions on people.

All rights have restrictions. However, the right to free speech, here in America, pertains to the expression of opinion, and protecting that expression from governmental sanction. In other words, we may opine as we please, no matter how obnoxious, but we cannot slander someone, or make verbal threats, and so on.

And I've underlined where you have unwittingly hit on the truth here. If you were to limit the rights of believers to espouse their beliefs, what do you think would happen to the rights of atheists, given that we are a distinct minority?

(March 6, 2015 at 3:43 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I know that, in some European countries, Holocaust denial is illegal so surely if you really wanted to defend freedom of speech then you'd defend the right of Holocaust deniers to speak, right?

Absolutely.

(March 6, 2015 at 3:43 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Or do people just want to defend opinions that they already agree with?

Of course not.

(March 6, 2015 at 3:43 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: 'Freedom of speech' is a very dubious term in my opinion. I think Holocaust deniers are disgusting people so I think it's right that they are denied their freedom to speak.

I don't know about you, but I've always found "shut up!" to be the worst argument going. Let folks deny the Holocaust, and then answer them with the facts. Not only do you now have a chance to change the deniers' minds, you also inoculate those ignorant of the entire history of it against the lies spread by deniers, with facts.

That conversation cannot be had if all you do is yell "shut up!"

(March 7, 2015 at 12:34 pm)robvalue Wrote: What if I deny that anyone has ever died? Would that be acceptable or not?

Yeah, that's an odd question. I mean technically that is Holocaust denial.