By the way, one thing that can be done to avoid the children indoctrination by their parents is to force a specific education in all schools. Like, you know, the state to take the responsibility of children education from parents. But that's even more dangerous.

The best thing(s) that can be done (by the state), IMO, are:
a) provide good education in schools (sciences, history, ethics, stuff that increase thinking capabilities)
b) help the parents in educating their children - there actually are quite many people who don't know how they have to behave with their children (even situations like children hitting their parents starting from 8 years old, and their parents don't know what to do).
c) the state must protect children from abuse by their parents (mostly, violence)
d) media & entertainment are also powerful forces that can shape the education of children.

What I believe would work well to protect children from being indoctrinated is to have compulsory classes of History of Religions. Many religious people live in fairy tales regarding their origin, and the religious institutions benefit much of those myths.

You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words. When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall. Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

(March 9, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Lek Wrote: You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words. When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall. Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

Key words if we really care we would let them choose on their own. If a child wants to worship Thor and or any other type of being fine let them.

(March 9, 2015 at 10:03 pm)dyresand Wrote: Key words if we really care we would let them choose on their own. If a child wants to worship Thor and or any other type of being fine let them.

This! So much, this.

Whether they worship or not. Whether it's the right gawd or not. Whatever they choose to do in life, I want only for my kids to be happy. That means not telling them what to believe.

(March 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Irrational Wrote: Indoctrinating is not the same as teaching by the way. Indoctrination involves obliging someone to unconditionally accept your views without considering other options.

Teaching morality to your kids is a good thing, but explain to them why you believe something is right or wrong, don't just impose your standards. It would also help to enable them to develop empathy for others with time.

For children, indoctrination is, basically, teaching someone the truth you believe in. You cannot say that X forced his beliefs upon his 6 years old child. The child simply believes whatever he's being told. If you say "There's a guy living in the sky" he will believe. By the time he grew older, he won't even need to be "forced" to go to church or do ritual A or B.

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(March 9, 2015 at 10:03 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Lek Wrote: You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words. When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall. Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

Key words if we really care we would let them choose on their own. If a child wants to worship Thor and or any other type of being fine let them.

I believe you don't understand very well... for the christians, the danger is very real. It's like, if your 6 years old child wants to enter in a house and you know there's a serial children killer inside, you will tell your child "don't go! don't go!". You can't tell him, "well, it's your choice, do whatever you want!". So a christian who really fears the perils of hell for his child will inevitably do all he can to 'save' him. The fact that that's an imaginary danger is another thing. If you've got a mentally ill parent, something similar will happen: he may not let his child get out of the house because there's the god of thunder waiting outside to strike him!

(March 9, 2015 at 10:09 pm)Zenith Wrote: I believe you don't understand very well... for the christians, the danger is very real. It's like, if your 6 years old child wants to enter in a house and you know there's a serial children killer inside, you will tell your child "don't go! don't go!". You can't tell him, "well, it's your choice, do whatever you want!". So a christian who really fears the perils of hell for his child will inevitably do all he can to 'save' him. The fact that that's an imaginary danger is another thing. If you've got a mentally ill parent, something similar will happen: he may not let his child get out of the house because there's the god of thunder waiting outside to strike him!

My whole deal is do not force your beliefs onto a child. Forcing a belief is a bad thing especially with the christian god i mean there is better made up gods out there. Then again a child has imagination which is a good thing and its a bad thing when it comes to religion that is why it work it preys on a child's imagination because it that irrational belief of hell will stick with them.

(March 9, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Lek Wrote: You all should realize that what you are proposing is all idealistic words.

You're wrong. I'm a father, and have practical experience.

(March 9, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Lek Wrote: When it comes down to it, if we really care abut our children we will each what we believe is best for them. It's not only just health and safety things, but what will benefit them overall.

I'm not sure how teaching your child to fear the wrath of an unseen deity, teaching him to fear eternal damnation, is healthy. Perhaps you would go into detail?

(March 9, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you really believe that a christian parent who believes that he possesses the only way to eternal salvation, will say "I know that if my child doesn't follow Christ he will be condemned to eternal death, but I'm not going to teach him that. If he doesn't become a christian, well that's great." If I think it's a bad thing to be a muslim, or whatever, then I'm going to tell them that.

That's nice. Just stop kidding yourself and think you're doing your child a favor, because you're not. You're teaching him that might makes right; you're teaching him to not question an authority figure; you're teaching him that he is worthy of nothing but self-hatred.

Why you think those lessons are good things to learn is beyond me .... but hey, keep his ass out of jail and I'll be happy.

(March 9, 2015 at 10:09 pm)Zenith Wrote: For children, indoctrination is, basically, teaching someone the truth you believe in. You cannot say that X forced his beliefs upon his 6 years old child. The child simply believes whatever he's being told. If you say "There's a guy living in the sky" he will believe. By the time he grew older, he won't even need to be "forced" to go to church or do ritual A or B.

Actually, I know parents who literally forced their beliefs on their children, and not just simply teach. But maybe it's just the culture I come from.

To be fair, just saying "There's a guy living in the sky" seems harmless. But it would still be way better to say that you believe there's a guy living in the sky but that it is possible you could be wrong. It's more in how you say things to the child rather than what you actually believe.

Regarding Christians sincerely believing in a hell, even so, it is still abuse to instill in children's minds that there is such a thing as hell, especially when you know there's no evidence for such a place. Intentions don't always have to matter. Abuse is still abuse.

And to Lek, if foreskins are such a bad thing to humanity, why did God create a subset of humans with foreskins in the first place?

Lek: do you see a difference between educating your children about your religious beliefs, and telling them what they should believe? Which did you do?

The circumcision issue is a perfect example of emotion vs logic. The real reason you had your children circumscized (feel free to correct me) is a religious reason, an emotional attachment to a mythology, and it's part in the story. Yet you put forward logical reasons about it being of some actual benefit as a procedure. Unless you'd like to put me straight, you did not do this for health reasons, you did it for religious reasons. Then this logical, health argument is a rationalization to make yourself feel better about have made the decision, for other reasons. But it's a failure as a logical argument, as almost all such rationalizations tend to be. Of course it's possible you may be deceiving yourself as to the real reason.

The facts are there is no real evidence it has any benefit at all, doctors do not advise it as standard. It's a mutilation which cannot easily be undone and which the child cannot consent to. There may have been a benefit 2000 years ago where personal hygiene was worse, but assuming you're taking good care of your child that is now entirely irrelevant, so why not let it decide when it is older if it wants to be mutilated? You're literally following 2000 year old advice. That's what the bible is. Most likely they wove this "advice" into the story.

And answer me this, if I make up a religion where I think cutting a little bit of my babies ears off is a "good thing" for them, should I be allowed to do this? Can I do what I like as long as I'm not causing too much damage?

And again, a perfect example of religion leading to real world actions with real consequences.

If I was your child, I would be angry you had done it to me. If you felt remorse and realized you had done it for bad reasons, I would forgive you. But if you persisted and claimed it was still a good thing and you'd do it again, I would be mad as hell.

I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm evaluating your beliefs and why I think religion has caused a problem here. I'll happily shut up if you're not interested in my evaluations