(March 11, 2015 at 4:47 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Alex K
It's not the diameter, or an attempt to "measure" earth's circumference. It's the bald claim the Quran presented that nobody ever said or believed in for a fact ; which is "Earth is a spherical shaped ball".

I really don't know what you are on about. Of course he assumed that the earth is a ball, that's what the whole geometry of his measurement is based on.

Quote:Saying earth is a ball, is so different from trying to measure its circumference or size. Saying earth is a ball, that contains "Heavy weights inside" is a bald claim, Alex K. That's the difference.

Simply saying the earth is a ball is indeed different from measuring the circumference of a ball, in the sense that the former is a trivial statement delivered 1000 years later when it was old news.

Quote:To support my point more :


( 25 ) Have We not made the earth a container
( 26 ) Of the living and the dead?
( 27 ) And We placed therein lofty, firmly set mountains and have given you to drink sweet water. Page 581

Is there supposed to be anything in there pertaining to the discussion at hand?

Quote:( 1 ) When the earth is shaken with its [final] earthquake
( 2 ) And the earth discharges its Athqal (translated to burdens ; more accurately it should be translated to "weights" #check note below).
( 3 ) And man says, "What is [wrong] with it?" -
( 4 ) That Day, it will report its news
( 5 ) Because your Lord has commanded it.

Again, there's absolutely nothing in there pertaining to your claims.

Quote:Dude the sun has a course, along with the whole solar system, orbiting the center of the milky way.

Check this verse which told people about it 1400 years ago before NASA :

( 37 ) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.
( 38 ) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
( 39 ) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
( 40 ) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. Page 442.

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

About the sun's orbit and how the quran spoke of it accurately ; that's another topic : )

You are seriously claiming that the author is not simply talking about the Ptolemaian orbits of the sun and moon around the earth? Because of course that's what he's talking about, you can tell from the text treating the orbits of sun and moon as basically in the same category.

And by the way, about the sun reaching the moon business, it seems that the author thinks the position of the moon has something to do with when it's night, when it is completely independent of that (solar eclipses, duh). And that they even have to mention that night does not overtake day reveals a deep ignorance of how night and day come about in the first place. To me it reads like the author was dumb as shit, incompetent when it comes to astronomy. In any case, any scholar knowing about heliocentrism wouldn't have written it like that.

You are so desperate to see something in there that isn't there, that you have to ignore the obvious interpretation of these things and read something deeper into it in hindsight.

(March 11, 2015 at 4:47 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: Europe had no credit in this.. this was taught to a nomad, via god. Unless you want to convince me, that the nomad had all the knowledge of greek?

How sure are you it was god who told him about the shape of the earth? It could have been his magical flying horse! Maybe it was his magical teleporting angel? Maybe it was little green fairies that flew over his bed at night? Since it was WOO WOO MAGIC why don't you tell us a little something about how his magic works. When god talked to Mo' did he use a golden sparkly magic phone that was powered by millions of tiny unicorns? Did god talk to him though crystal cups connected with a braided string of magic unicorn hair?

Forget the boring mundane details of planetary orbits, that's science, tell us about how god stirs his magic potions in a iron cauldron to perform all of his magic tricks.

This is a little off topic, but Tubby asked, so I will reply.
"If ANYONE will truly determine to DO God's will- he will know my teaching- wither it comes from God or from man".
Those words were spoken by Jesus.
I grew up in Catholicism and I threw it out the window.
If I had grown up in Islam- it too would have gone out the window.

I wanted to know- "What am I doing here and where am I going".
If anyone, anywhere, would be relentless about the above question, that person will leave every lying system the world has to offer.

(March 11, 2015 at 8:07 am)professor Wrote: If I had grown up in Islam- it too would have gone out the window.

I'd like to believe that about myself, too - but can we be sure?

(March 11, 2015 at 4:47 am)AtlasS2 Wrote: I'm a guy who appreciates science, in my field of Computer Science, I refer to the people who taught me & discovered new things..
Not burn them alive then steal their work & re-produce it in my name & language.

-and yet this is exactly what the expanding muslim empire did. Again, credit for the actual labor goes to proxies...apparently they (the empire) wanted it stolen but didn't want to (or couldn't) do all the data entry themselves...
(My money is on the latter. The works were undertaken, the proxies were compensated...so the desire existed...but why would a militarized state be good at translating documents - think about this practically. The empire did what it could, and outsourced what it couldn't yet still desired. In the grander scheme of their expansion they were a ruling minority who couldn't -help- but leverage both the labor and knowledge of others even if they tried not to. Business as usual and in no way a condemnation of their motives or achievements.)

Quote:Anyhow, saying earth is "a round coin" that has an end, with a hades under it (proof that nobody ever believed earth is spherical, Zues at the end of the world spraying thunder on his spoiled kids), excuse me but that is not science.

Neither are the claims of the quran...so who's counting, and why?

Quote:Europe had no credit in this.. this was taught to a nomad, via god. Unless you want to convince me, that the nomad had all the knowledge of greek?

Why would anyone waste time convincing you of such a plainly ridiculous thing? No god taught a nomad any such, don't be silly. Your "nomad" gets it right when the greeks get it right, wrong when the greeks get it wrong, and for the same reasons in either case. The explanation for this, has nothing to do with djinn................or any single nomad. If it took djinn, and had to do with some rando wandering the desert...it would really be inexplicable, but it doesn't, so it isn't.. and gets plenty of mention in history (that is apparently bullshit...if you say so).

I'm not sure what you want out of this discussion...do you want to ackowledge the muslim contributions to history that our historical narrative acknowledges...or call history bullshit for not acknowledging that narrative while calling it bullshit yourself? Is your gripe, more accurately, that history doesn't remember what you want it to/what you've been told, about islam and it's contributions? If that's the case, tough luck buddy. Or, do you positively require some djinn in this narrative. You just won't believe that the early umma did -precisely what it did- and that the only explanation for what you see is both "magic" and "the great satan"?

(March 11, 2015 at 9:07 am)Alex K Wrote:

(March 11, 2015 at 8:07 am)professor Wrote: If I had grown up in Islam- it too would have gone out the window.

I'd like to believe that about myself, too - but can we be sure?

Oh, he doesn't call himself "professor" because he is not sure whether he "knows" all sorts of things for sure.

Chuck and Alex, we can be absolutely, positively sure that we are going to find out for sure.
Time does more than heal all wounds.

(March 11, 2015 at 1:38 pm)professor Wrote: Chuck and Alex, we can be absolutely, positively sure that we are going to find out for sure.
Time does more than heal all wounds.

In your case, time stood still at around 13th century.

Sorry for the delay.

MrNoMorePropaganda

Quote:Oh goody, Dawah to the Atheist Forum – this should be fun! It seems one can never have too many Brownie Points from Allah and this desire to accumulate as many Brownie Points as possible as lead you to the Lion’s Den, so to speak. The rewards are great after all – greater than receiving the best type of camel (to quote our enemy, as Atheists, that fumbling idiot, Hamza Andreas Tzortis*). Well - brave Human - allow me to pick apart your post.
*source (10:42 in the video):

You really think I listen to Islamic videos like these, don't you ?
Well, let me put it straight to you. Growing up in the middle east makes you see things, that usually you won't see in the west.

Meaning is -despite this being out of context-, the land & home are burning, Syria literally went back to the stone age, poverty, ignorance, crime, Islam got twisted & sub-categorized into 3 main sects : all have deadly fangs & all got blood stains allover, all of that exists in the Middle East, yet I doubt Mr.Hamza ever tells you that, instead I'm almost certain that he tries to give westerners the impression (using Sunni Hadiths) that beyond in the Middle East, a heaven of peaceful Muslims live. Gotta say the truth, I will never hear a Muslim or believe him/her, unless they admit loud & clear that the Middle East is about to turn into an Arena of bloodthirsty cutthroats who got twisted by injustice, poverty & wrong practices.

Other than that. Oh boy ain't it so out of context. I don't know the guy, but honestly I avoid people who use Hadith either sunni or shia. So, sorry, but I'm passing this video.

Quote:You make so many assertions that it’s hard to take you seriously. Where are your sources? You appear to be simply using a stock argument you copied/heard from somewhere. The trouble with people such as yourself, no disrespect, is that you only provide/ask for sources when it suits you to do so.

Ain't it another personal attack based on crap ? oh well, check my profile picture. Of course you can't take me seriously, I mean even me don't take me seriously :p

Quote:Granted – that’s one of the reasons why I ignore Hadith as much as I can. The Hadith are full of names and I can’t help but feel that many of the names, especially those linking Muhammad to Abraham/Ishmael, are simply pulled out of thin air. Sometimes I might refer to memorable Hadith for my own amusement though. No offense, but there’s some quite ridiculous content in the Hadith. For example, would Humans have been better off with gills instead of noses (because Iblis apparently hates water)?

Glad you reached the conclusion ! it's the same thing I spent my life trying to convince people with here on AF, and outside in the real world : though I always get rejected by both Muslims & Atheists. Which made me more stubborn to believe in my theory about the Hadith.

Mainly, revise Islamic history, especially the era when the Muslim state turned from the system of "Shura = voting" to Monarchy. That era contained lots of forging & it's the same era the Hadith was presented in as "a holly text ; as strong as the Quran".

For example, according to the Quran, you cannot invade unless somebody invaded you ; so you needed to counter back to keep him at bay. Of course it's not so extreme ; Sun-Tzu would've told you the same, Richard the Lionheart would've told you the same either.
Though ; in order to invade other countries and get "gold + Caucasian booty", the Ummayads forged Hadiths which literally go against the Quran, which led to the unjust invasion of Spain. Yep, the Ummayads played the role of the first conquistadors ever ; maybe Cortez learned from them how to brutalize others, enslave them & take their gold.

So, good one, me & you agree on this point totally. The Hadith don't just has "ridiculous things" ; it has FORGED THINGS.
For that, my neck would be a perfect target for ISIS & many other extremists, who already consider me "an infidel" Probably Hamza himself would consider me that.

To say that the Ummah has been the nemesis of the West since the Romans/Byzantines is simply not true. It’s a gross rewriting of history. I can provide several examples where the Caliphate/Ummah have been on the side of the West.

Quote:The Republic of Venice benefitted greatly from peace with the Ottomans (video) because the Ottomans allowed Venetian trade ships to pass through their waters:

An economical agreement doesn't mean at all, that the two people were good with each other or even close from that. You ignore a long bloody history of war with Rome, then the unjust invasion of Spain by Muslims, then invading until the defeat at the gates of Paris at the hands of "The Hammer", then warfare with all of Europe (during the Crusades) which was an unjust invasion, then the everlasting wars between the Ottomans and the eastern Western states like Romania (Vlad..you forgot about that twisted fuck ? ) then finally invasion of Britain & France of the ruins of the Ottomans (which was sadly us ; our arab states) which resulted in the west selling our land like a cheap product to whoever pays more : Zionism was ready to buy & Palistine turned from one day to another into "Israel", when the west betrayed its secular values & raised a new religious theory mixed with nationalism, sprayed cheaply with secularism, for the right price anything is possible ,and that turning a prophecy from the old testament into a reality. The history which was written by the victors says that. Thank god I studied it from western sources. Everything is online ; quoted ; if you care to read. I advice you to start on the Sykes-Picot treatment, it would show you the great amount of love Europe has for the Middle East. And now with Oil, everybody knows why western armies are stacked in the region like moth.

Quote:Secondly, apparently you’ve never heard of the Crimean War? The Caliphate was on the same side as the West (i.e. British, French and Sardinians) against the Russians. Maybe they were allies of convenience, but the fact remains that they the Ummah has not always been an enemy of the West.

Since the Russians wanted to expand on behalf of the Ottoman Empire of Impales, Ottomans needed some help from these allies to keep Impaling Russians who formed a serious threat.

I don't think the CIA loved the Sunni Jihadists (who actually formed ISIS later) during operation cyclone.

And, these Muslims who fought the germans didn't even know what german means. They were peasants, worked most of their lives as sub-humans, and went to that war as slave, to die like slaves. May god have mercy on them, and forgive them for contributing to that terrible massacre. Britain did the same with India, Ghandi didn't protest for nothing, mate. The west did indeed treat the locals of the invaded countries like slaves.

Quote:I kindly ask you to stop perpetuating this “us and them” mentality.

There exists people on this world (mostly started to spawn in the last 50 years), who give no shit about where you're from, or what your heritage is. I'm one of those people, and loud and clear you can hear it from me now :

We Are all humans, there is no "Us & you", until you start to practice the "Us & you" mentality.

You don't know the feeling of an Arab, when he watched hollywood movies, to find them all referring to him as a stupid crazy terrorist nomad.

The guy tries to listen to rock and roll (he actually loves it), self studies English to master it, keep standing and asking : what did I ever do to you to picture me like that ? I never hurt you, I like your media, I like many aspects in your civilization. Why call me names without even knowing me ? why do you erase a history of 1400 years, Buddhists who contributed lowly to fields like science take more credit in the west, you never hear about the great architecture of Muslims in medieval era, never hear that Muslims discovered Coffee in the city of Mocha in Yemen, never.

Though the intro song of Aladdin keeps banging in your head : "where they cut down your ears when they don't like your face".

So not us & them.

In many western countries, Muslims are not welcomed -even if the governments allowed them entry-. But you see, to avoid madness, I educated myself, to discover this one fact :

Beautiful, lovely, friendly people exist. Either in the west, or the middle east, or on the moon. Either atheists, Muslims, or Jews.

Quote:Sure whatever, but even if we grant you that assertion, the fact remains that there are many Arabs who are Christian. Today, the numbers dwindle, thanks to the actions of the Fascists that control large parts of Arabia. Don’t you think that Rome (the Vatican) would want to protect Arabian Churches that are in communion with it? Why would Rome hate all of the Arabs?

The Jizya is an evil tax which encourages people to change their religion because they will want to pay less tax. Many people didn’t convert simply because they thought this new religion was “the truth”. They converted because they wanted to lessen the burden on their families.

Sure & whatever ?
Sure I think I regret the size of my current comment since you won't read most of it. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Rome wanted $$. Egypt was lost, the levant was lost, the roman emperor couldn't afford anymore steak. Guess who betrayed him & allowed Muslims in ? THE NATIVE CHRISTIANS !!

Rome actually had no warriors to spare, and that's when the Crusades started ; by brining lunatics from Europe to hack & slash their way as a proxy army, thus cash would flow to rome. But of course, the church of Europe had another plan : to keep the cash for themselves.

I didn't read about the Gyzia in details, so I can't discuss anything I'm not certain of especially if it's in the Quran. But it's an unjust system if it was forced on the citizens. Yet, forcing it on enemies is so similar to today's international sanctions, which are more severe, and led countries like Iraq and Syria to what you see today.

Quote:Surely that’s important though. When did the Arabs and the Romans start hating each other? Was it before or after Muhammad? Even if it was before Muhammad it doesn’t prevent the flow of information between people living in the Roman Empire and Arabs.

Muhammad was a merchant, and, as a merchant, he would have come into contact with lots of people – all sorts of people. He would have needed good numeracy and communication skills but -above all – a good memory. He needed to know the best route from point A to point B. Obviously he would have had to have been reasonably knowledgeable. I personally think that it would have been more amazing and, dare I say it, miraculous, if he could read/write given that even basic literacy skills were rare amongst Arabs at that time. Even today, Arab countries such the Yemen, Somalia and Morocco have very poor rates of literacy.

I can tell you about the amount of love the world had for rome (cough cough Atilla the Hun), and my evidence is how "Europe itself" set the western roman empire to flames and burnt its citizens to dust, from Gaul to Britania ; ending its western branch before Mohammed peace be upon him.

As for the eastern empire, read about their tyranny in Egypt and the crucifixions which awaited natives (either christians or heathens) if they ever discussed why costantinuess the xxxxIIIII is wearing fancy shoes & eating fancy beef at his fort. Everybody hated rome & persia, since ancient times.

Quote:Again, not true. You are the one who is ignoring the history books. The West is made up of many countries and not all of them are staunch/blind allies of the United States. But I’ll be interested to see which Quran translations you are using. Hopefully not a version of the Quran that’s been translated after the science in the Quran narrative took off (and has therefore been influenced by it) such as Saheeh International.

Translation ? dude I read the Quran in the same Arabic and thank god for that, I actually read the original text without any aid from outer sources ; especially hadith & "scholars' mumbo jumbo".

Quote:Which scholars in particular are you referring to? Source, please?

1)Ibn Taymeia
2)Ibn Hazm
3)Al-Idreesy

The writings of both taymeia & hazm refer also to other scholars, who said the same thing. Ibn Taymeia's book where he mentioned it literally, that earth is spherical, exists in the link I provided up in the topic.

Quote:It would have been nice of you to tell us that the verse which you have provided is Quran 39:5. I see nothing special in the verse. All that it's saying is that there is a day/night cycle. You seem to be imposing things on the verse which were never intended. The Tafisr for Quran 39:5 agree with the English translation and say nothing about the Earth being round! So you are not only are you flying in the face of the the major Quran translators. You are flying in the face of the scholars such as Al-Jalalayn and Ibn ‘Abbâs too!

Then if I'm against the majority, how does Ibn Taymeya & Ibn Hazm, both agree with me and even claim it's the majority's thoughts, 900 years ago ?

And then again, the whole topic discusses, how lousy the translation is, for twisting a word & replacing it for another.

I'm known for defying the majority nowadays.

Quote:Are you for real?

Then again, Quran interpretation is always subjective because Allah didn't provide humanity with any Tafisr. If the Quran was actually unambiguous there would be no need for the commentaries. The Quran is often so vague and also quite repetitive I've noticed. It's hardly what I would call divine revelation.

The explanations are there, because the book requires lots of thinking ; most people ignore that.

Check this video ; you'll know why interpretations are nemorous :




Do you see how the Quran is being read like a song ? nobody understands what is written. Your average Muslim leaves the explanation to the big beards you see at the front, your average Muslim rarely opens the Quran.

The concept is, just like Hamza, they only care about "the price". And their Hadiths tells them, that even if you don't understand anything, reading the Quran would make you a good Muslim.

So, let the explenations fly, and nobody reads the book to make sure what is actually being explained.

So no wonder, that "Yokawer" turns into "Wraps".

Quote:Are you saying that you know better than all of the great Quran translators? Why should I believe the conspiracy theories of some random website? Are you saying Marmaduke Pickthall, Abdallah Yusuf Ali and Arthur John Arberry were all wrong and couldn’t understand Arabic properly? It looks like whoever you got this argument from allowing their desires as a believer to cloud their, and ultimately your, interpretation of the Quran. I have shown that the Tafsir and major Quran translations are in agreement on Quran 39:5.

Well, in judgement day, those nice people you talk about won't come defend me for following their translations ; wouldn't they ?

Then why when I stand against many Muslims with my theories, they threaten me to cut my head ? their interpretation & explanation is weak ; that's why they go angry every time somebody curses mohammed peace be upon him, or gets closer to their goats & idols whom they call "scholars".

The same scholars which led to ISIS, led to the impales of the Ottomans, led to the gulags of the Abassyds, led to the mass massacres of the Ummayads against Mohammed's family, and led to hell I currently live in.

Quote:This website is of no use to me and means nothing to me.

Good for you. Maybe if you visited it, you can see by yourself why يكور isn't "wraps".

Quote:Sure, whatever. Anybody who has seen a Lunar eclipse (something which occurs several times a year) will know that the Earth is round. It’s not difficult.
It’s obvious people have known the Earth is round for thousands of years and Muhammad would not have needed the Romans to tell him...

Oh, so of course ; the romans gotta be the ones behind the Quran, I mean Gosh !!

It's not known, and the blow that happened in europe after the discovery was "published" was enough to put forth a revolution in science.
Sadly, Ibn Taymeya mentioned it 300 years before that, basing it on the Quranic verse that I used too. Oh what a shame, them romans, gotta the ones

Quote:Umm, okay? How do you know he got his knowledge from the Quran and not from receiving an education? You are providing lots of links to Arabic websites (which you know we can’t verify). It appears that you are one of these shysters lurks behind the Arabic language and who banks on the fact that nobody will be able to verify the Arabic.

Actually many members here do speak arabic, I don't they're shy from exposing me.
I can't find translations. I swear I couldn't. Especially for Ibn Taymya's book, there is no mention, not even a word.

But how to prove to you that you're reading a wrong translation, if I didn't use the native language ?

Google translate is there to at least check I'm not a troll. Eventually it yields to whatever..

Quote:In English, please.

Can't find. Translate the chapters ( a simple copy paste), then search "spherical earth". That's enough.

Quote:So what? Anybody who looks in the night sky will know the Earth is round. I’ve mentioned Lunar eclipses before but all the other bodies in the night sky are spherical, so why should the Earth be any different?

Okay who stopped the ancients from saying earth is a globe, or at least forge a simple model for it ?

Why did Europe viewed the guy who said that as a crazy magicians who should be toasted ?

Things that makes ya wonder..

Then why was that guy considered "the one who discovered earth was spherical & round" ? Why did historians call him that ?

Quote:That’s convenient. It’s hard not to view this statement cynically.

Again. It's not my fault ; it's the fault of a racist crowd that only translates lost, forged books that advocate murder, but ignore anything related to science.

Quote:I admire your bravery for posting here and doing the Dawah here, I really do. How about giving us any Quran verses that you believe mention gravity so that we can scrutinize them?

I'm posting here because Muslims would stone me alive. Tried to, got kicked out of many forums, and received online threats of torture.

I'm not asking people for cash, neither am I asking for friendship or "red camels". When I see an alien, I would try my best to tell others what I saw (used the alien example to give a rich fun making material for you).

anyhow, on gravity these 3 verses might point to it remotely, check them out (unlike the spherical earth ; my explanation can be fragile) :

( 36 ) But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time." page 6

( 24 ) [Allah] said, "Descend, being to one another enemies. And for you on the earth is a place of settlement and enjoyment for a time." page 153

Before you ask where the verses are, I always always provide the pages ; I usually don't count on "Sura name", pages are more accurate to refrence.

one cannot descent without a gravity or a force pulling them. To your average nomad in the desert 1400 years ago, those two verses were enough for them to acknowledge as Muslims, that god pulled people to earth using a kind of force.

Since heaven is always known to be "above", how could one descent without a force pulling them ?

Quote:Maybe you haven’t looked hard enough in the English sources?

Let me say what I wrote in this topic out in the public : I'll be mocked allover the world as a crazy Ali-baba.

I studied in school that Europe discovered the globe is actually a globe. Find me english translations & direct acknowledging and I will shut up.

Quote:Can you provide a source for all this? Which Greeks believed that the Earth was coin shaped? Which Greeks believed that the Earth had a hollow interior?

Previously you boldly asserted that the Quran says that Earth is “padded in its core” without providing a verse for us to examine. How can a liquid (you mention lava and molten metals) be padding? Either the Quran says that Earth has a liquid core or the Quran talks about padding. Not both as the statements contradict each other. In each case you have yet to provide a verse.

You have said that the Quran mentions gravity too, twice, but you have yet to provide verse. Please provide a verse so that we can examine it. I would be grateful for some verses.

Oh no no , the greeks didn't believe earth was hollow ; they believed earth had super duper hole that takes you to hades ; some of them even claimed they visited hades, and the gate is at that island which was full of sexy naked booty mermaids & medusa as their mistress, I think ? embrace the foot fetish at the end of the world !!

But despite that, the "coin shape" is simply viewing earth as a round desk which has and end, if you don't like the coin consider it a plate. Here check this out :

http://www.livius.org/concept/the-edges-of-the-earth-1/

What an amazing coin.

Quote:If the interior of the Earth contains the “the underworld” then it can’t be hollow, can it? If the interior of the Earth is completely hollow than there must be nothing inside of it, right? Or maybe I’m mistaken?

I said "dimension". I.e you won't even be on the coin's (plate's) surface anymore, you'll be in another dimension away from the toes of Gaia.

Quote:Can you provide sources that demonstrate that the majority of Greeks believed that the Earth was coin shaped? And so what if the Quran says the Earth is round? If the Earth was actually flat then you'd bee telling us that the Quran says that the Earth is flat because the Quran is so flexible like that. [url=http://www.quranx.com/71.19]Quran 71.19 compares the Earth to a carpet and Quran 20:53 compares the Earth to a bed.

No, if the Quran said that, I would've became an atheist. I didn't accuse the majority of anything, I only judge by the culture.

The two comparisons you mentioned, are from the pov of the observer. The same as the verse, which describes a king -dhu al qarnain- who traveled until he saw the sun "swims in a lake". That verse was about what the king saw : a sunset next to a lake. The same applies on these verses.

To any observer, earth seems flat from the ground.

Quote:The Byzantines spoke Greek. Greek was the official language of the Eastern Roman empire. In Muhammad time, and even before in the time of Jesus, Greek was the language you used if you wanted to get your message heard. He didn’t need to go to Greece. True, Greek was on its way out by Muhammad’s time but he was a merchant so he would have done a lot of travelling. Muhammad was not stuck a bubble and he was certainly not surrounded by a force field that prevented him from acquiring knowledge.

Thanks for the new info ; truly, I didn't know how spread greek language was. I thought it was latin.

That's your opinion. and again, people have truly conflicting theories about mohammed peace be upon him : from a caveman ali-baba to an evil mastermind.

Quote:Since this post took several hours of my day to complete I expect a proper (well sourced) reply! A lie can take seconds to create but much longer to refute. Please be stop spouting this rubbish.

Uh, it's not rubbish. And the post took about 2 hours from me now, but I thought your counter-sources were rubbish too ; along with so much topics that you opened out of context. At least I brought you the coin theory link (call it a plate..or even a cookie).

Thanks for passing by.

---

Don't think I'm ignoring anybody guys !!!
I'll reply to each & every one of you. I just need to eat some kosher beef (I'm not kidding) and smoke me a cig, the previous post took me so much to reply.

Foreword: Things I have yet to address are the gravity verses, immigration to Western countries, the three scholars you cited and the Greek hollow Earth. Since this post is long, and it’s getting late, I’ll add a new post later where I address anything I haven’t mentioned in this post. Know that I aim to comment on everything in your reply and I'd like you to point out anything else that I haven't mentioned which you feel that I've left out of this post.

Thanks for your response AtlasS2, I appreciate it. I like to think that defy the majority myself. First, allow me to apologise for the actions of my country in helping to mess up the world. If I was old enough at the time I would have attended those anti-Iraq War protests. Even today, with the country having to cut back on spending David Cameron is still talking about going to war.

Turns out I had you all wrong, and I'm sorry! Hamza loves to lie to people and keep people on puppet strings so I'm so pleased that you ignore him. It's so hard to find a believer who also takes issue with what he says (mainly because they don't educate themselves enough to know that he's wrong). These converts, such as Hamza, love to beg people for money. They go on holiday to an exotic place and claim they are going on a 'Dawah Trip' just so they can get their lackeys, as opposed to themselves, to pay for it. They will never be able to hold a proper job.

The only people I see promoting your religion in the West are those funded, at least in part, by Saudi Arabia. To me this is really troubling. Saudi Arabia is a nasty country and they are trying to export their cultural hegemony by building Mosques and paying for Imams all over the world. It would be nice to see some people who aren’t Salafist/Wahhabi attempting to make a positive case for their religion. I wouldn’t go near Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab with a barge pole, so to speak, because, if I’m not mistaken, he encouraged the destruction of many historic buildings.

After all, there aren’t just Sunnis, so the others need to speak up. The U.K. Mosque directory informs me that there are lots of Shia Mosques but I only see people promoting the ideas of Mr. Wahhab on the streets (because aren't Salafists basically Wahhabis who refuse to acknowledge Mr. Wahhab as their inspiration?) , though the does seem to be the odd Ahmadiyya too (I think) but it's extremely rare to find anyone who isn't promoting Mr. Wahhab's ideas. Presumably, there are some Ibadis too – and maybe when I have some time I’ll investigate the Ibadis in more detail since they often get ignored. I’m curious about them mainly because they predate Sunni/Shia and have their own separate set of Hadith.

Which, of course, brings me to my main problem with the Hadith: Who has the right Hadith? Is it Ibadi, Sunni or Shia? Just because the Sunnis are the most popular doesn’t make their Hadith any more true that the Ibadis and Shia collections. Even if 100% of believers thought the Sunni Hadith were the correct ones they could still be wrong.

Anyhow…moving on…

Firstly, in regard to Google Translate, it's not ideal and I regretted not elaborating on why I try and avoid Google Translate. A computer is no substitute for a Human and this article, A Warning From History For The Google Translate Generation, warns about young people not having proper language skills. It explains that machines do not have the ability to, and I quote, "consider the cultural context that gives each word its meaning" and mentions the Bible and the Quran in particular.

In regard to that (Greek) map you provided. I’ve actually seen it before. In my opinion, and maybe I’m misconstruing here, all it’s showing that the continents, i.e. the landmass, is coin shaped but crucially it’s not saying that the Earth is flat. You can have a coin shaped mass on a round Earth. This is simply how the Greeks thought the continents were shaped. In fact, nowhere in the article is the word “flat” mentioned. You’ll note that the landmasses are surrounded by ocean and not "the edge of the Earth" - this is simply because the Greek didn't explore that far and you'll also note how much of Europe is actually missing (e.g. British Isles, Scandinavia, Faeroe Islands).

(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: Thanks for the new info ; truly, I didn't know how spread greek language was. I thought it was latin.

In terms of the Greek language, I think the reason the New Testament was written in Greek (and not the language Jesus spoke, Aramaic), is because the writers wanted their message to spread. Back then, right up to the days of Muhammad, I think it’s safe to assume, Greek was the language of trade. Greek was similar to English today. Hence, it made sense to learn the Greek language. Sure, Latin was important, I’ll accept that, but not until later when Greek was on its way out because of the decline of the Eastern Roman Empire.

But I have no doubt that the Romans, both Eastern and Western, were tyrannical. I’m tempted to compare them to the Mughal rulers of India but I know such a comparison is unhelpful. What I will say, however, is that I believe early Christians had it much worse than the Arabs, unless of course Arabs were also slaughtered mindlessly and any survivors fed to lions for the amusement of a crowd.

This actually brings me to another point. In the Quran it appears that Allah created Christianity by accident. Why would Allah make it appear as if Jesus was crucified knowing that it would create a new religion, a religion which would become the largest religion? This seems odd to me.
[url= http://www.quranx.com/4.157]Quran 4:157[/url] says this: “That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“

(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: You don't know the feeling of an Arab, when he watched hollywood movies, to find them all referring to him as a stupid crazy terrorist nomad.

I might not know about the feelings of an Arab, but believe me, I know about stereotypes from Hollywood movies. Part of my family is from Italy, and I remember that at school I was accused of being in the Mafia. Most people weren’t as stupid as to accuse me of that but I can appreciate how it must feel to be on the receiving end of stereotypes. Fortunately, I can speak English without any trouble - otherwise my life would be a whole lot worse.

I am actually beginning to have a real appreciation for Arab cuisine, by the way. From what I’ve tasted, it’s good and I feel compelled to by a recipe book and make my own Tagine and Falafels. Please don’t think I hate Arabs. I am deeply saddened when I hear the story of Omar Mukhtar, for example.

In regard to this:

(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: For example, according to the Quran, you cannot invade unless somebody invaded you ; so you needed to counter back to keep him at bay. Of course it's not so extreme ; Sun-Tzu would've told you the same, Richard the Lionheart would've told you the same either.

I agree; Quran 22:39 says this: “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-"

But I have a problem with the verse. What it’s saying is that you should fight when Allah is unable or unwilling to protect you or does not want to stop the aggressors. Surely, Allah should defend those amongst the Ummah who have been wronged? It would be a perfect sign that the religion is the truth. I am sure Omar Mukhtar would have appreciated Allah's help against the Italians. It wasn't until millions of deaths later, after World War Two had ended, that Libya became independent. Is this right? I think Allah should have protected Omar much better than he did.

(March 12, 2015 at 5:34 pm)AtlasS2 Wrote: Do you see how the Quran is being read like a song ? nobody understands what is written. Your average Muslim leaves the explanation to the big beards you see at the front, your average Muslim rarely opens the Quran.

This is exactly like the Christians and, by the way, the Bible can be read as song too if people desire, Psalms in particular because that chapter contains actual songs. However, I shouldn’t be comparing the Quran and the Bible because they are so different and the Bible is so much longer than the Quran so it’s not really a fair comparison.

My family, both from England and Italy, comes from a protestant background (about 2% of Italians are Protestant I think), so when I go to visit family in Italy I hear all latest conspiracy theories about the Catholic Church. I’ve heard the Catholic Church actually doesn’t want people to read the Bible, and it is true that before the Bible was translated into languages other than Latin, the commoners couldn’t read it – because only rich people and clergy could speak Latin. My thoughts are that the Quran is the same. People expect you to just accept it and not read it for yourself. I think this can be said for all religious texts.

The video was interesting, by the way, and I’d love to know what’s inside of the Kaaba of Mecca. The structure has always fascinated me. In the era that we live in, with space travel becoming more prevalent, I’m sure the scholars will need to think deeply about prayer directions. How is somebody on the dark side of Earth’s moon, for example, supposed to do Salat and fast? They can’t pray towards Mecca and I have to doubt fasting will be awkward too – but that’s a topic for another time maybe.