(March 13, 2015 at 6:39 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think the most interesting thing about neanderthals isn't really what they made, but what they lacked that makes us different. Keep in mind they were around for 100,000 years longer than we've been around as a species and yet in all the extra time they had on us, never developed civilization. Why?

They lived in climates where agriculture would have been impossible, didn't they?

(March 13, 2015 at 6:39 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think the most interesting thing about neanderthals isn't really what they made, but what they lacked that makes us different. Keep in mind they were around for 100,000 years longer than we've been around as a species and yet in all the extra time they had on us, never developed civilization. Why?

Because they had much much lower population than HSS, so if the same percentage of them were geniuses compared to HSS, it would still take the neaderthal species much much longer to accumulate the same total number of geniuses?

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(March 14, 2015 at 10:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 13, 2015 at 6:39 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I think the most interesting thing about neanderthals isn't really what they made, but what they lacked that makes us different. Keep in mind they were around for 100,000 years longer than we've been around as a species and yet in all the extra time they had on us, never developed civilization. Why?

They lived in climates where agriculture would have been impossible, didn't they?

Keep in mind HS lived for 150,000 years where agriculture was possible, and didn't develop agriculture. HSS lived for 60,000 years where agriculture was possible, and didn't seem to develop agriculture.

(March 14, 2015 at 10:11 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Although the Neanderthals had a large brain, the also had overlarge sensory lobes, specifically visual and olfactory lobes. I do believe they had some elements of culture, but things like missing organized agriculture or staying with the same primitive design for their toolkits even as archaic H. Sapiens was designing more and better tools lead me to think that there's a kernel of truth to the stereotype we hold of them.

I heard the problem was not their brains, which were bigger than ours, but other parts of their bodies: specifically, shoulder joints with a very poor range of motion, and possibly problems with overheating in warmer climes.

(March 14, 2015 at 11:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 14, 2015 at 10:11 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Although the Neanderthals had a large brain, the also had overlarge sensory lobes, specifically visual and olfactory lobes. I do believe they had some elements of culture, but things like missing organized agriculture or staying with the same primitive design for their toolkits even as archaic H. Sapiens was designing more and better tools lead me to think that there's a kernel of truth to the stereotype we hold of them.

I heard the problem was not their brains, which were bigger than ours, but other parts of their bodies: specifically, shoulder joints with a very poor range of motion, and possibly problems with overheating in warmer climes.

This would make sense. Since they were in Europe for hundreds of thousands of years, it would make sense that they would have adapted such to the cold climate, that they wouldn't be able to cope going back to Africa where they evolved.

Modern humans definitely had the advantage in some way. It might have even just been an advantage of numbers, given how vanishingly small the genetic input of Neanderthals is into modern Europeans.

I think we need to forget the idea of modern humans "wiping out" Neanderthals though. They weren't wiped out by modern humans, they just bred with and were absorbed into the encroaching modern human population. That is a big deal, because it means Neanderthals had to be very genetically similar to modern humans. It's not too big an assumption to make that they could probably talk as well.

(March 14, 2015 at 11:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 14, 2015 at 10:11 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Although the Neanderthals had a large brain, the also had overlarge sensory lobes, specifically visual and olfactory lobes. I do believe they had some elements of culture, but things like missing organized agriculture or staying with the same primitive design for their toolkits even as archaic H. Sapiens was designing more and better tools lead me to think that there's a kernel of truth to the stereotype we hold of them.

I heard the problem was not their brains, which were bigger than ours, but other parts of their bodies: specifically, shoulder joints with a very poor range of motion, and possibly problems with overheating in warmer climes.

The overheating I could see as a result of surface-to-mass ratio. I hadn't known about the joint limitations. Little bit of reading to do for the next couple of days, thanks!

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(March 14, 2015 at 11:17 pm)NuclearJaguar Wrote: I think we need to forget the idea of modern humans "wiping out" Neanderthals though. They weren't wiped out by modern humans, they just bred with and were absorbed into the encroaching modern human population. That is a big deal, because it means Neanderthals had to be very genetically similar to modern humans. It's not too big an assumption to make that they could probably talk as well.

The recent discovery of a Neaderthal hyoid bone (which provides leverage for the throat muscles in manipulating the larynx) certainly supports this idea.

(March 15, 2015 at 12:58 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(March 14, 2015 at 11:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I heard the problem was not their brains, which were bigger than ours, but other parts of their bodies: specifically, shoulder joints with a very poor range of motion, and possibly problems with overheating in warmer climes.

The overheating I could see as a result of surface-to-mass ratio. I hadn't known about the joint limitations. Little bit of reading to do for the next couple of days, thanks!

Some recent research suggests you were correct to begin with, Parker. Some areas of Neanderthal brains were bigger than ours leaving less room for the parts used for higher cognitive functions.

Why is everyone dancing around the fact that total neanderthal populations were consistently estimated to have been much smaller? I see sociological reasons gets the short thrift.

Also, there is hint that neanderthal children mature differently from AMHS, and neaderthal female may not experience or live beyond menopause, thus neaderthal family and societies may by necessity be structured in a way that reduce marginal effectiveness of generation to generation knowledge transfer.

When one asks why neaderthal societies failed to undergo agricultural revolution, one overlooks the fact that when AMHS underwent agricultural revolution only after the global climate has changed dramatically since when Neanderthals still lived, and while Neanderthals yet lived, no AMHS underwent agricultural revolution either, and once last major glacial maximum waned, agricultural revolution may have occurred independently in several different AMHS within a comparatively short period. All this suggests environment played a dominating role in preventing agriculture while Neanderthals yet lived.

(March 15, 2015 at 11:46 am)Chuck Wrote: Also, there is hint that neanderthal children mature differently from AMHS, and neaderthal female may not experience or live beyond menopause, thus neaderthal family and societies may by necessity be structured in a way that reduce marginal effectiveness of generation to generation knowledge transfer.

Interesting stuff, Chuck. Do you have any online sources which flesh this information out a little more?

There is some neanderthal dna mixed in with human dna so yeah creation fucked even more.

(March 14, 2015 at 11:17 pm)NuclearJaguar Wrote: They weren't wiped out by modern humans, they just bred with and were absorbed into the encroaching modern human population. That is a big deal, because it means Neanderthals had to be very genetically similar to modern humans. It's not too big an assumption to make that they could probably talk as well.

So they could give consent?