(March 16, 2015 at 6:53 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Fascists despise social justice and they probably oppose 99% of the things atheism plus stands for except for the censorship part.

Atheism+ may talk like they want social justice, but they act more like their only concern is squashing dissent. Starting a movement that's supposed to be about equality while vehemently demonizing anyone that disagrees with you is just stupid.

I think there was a member here who joined A+ and was banned for asking a question (I forget what on,something innocuous) in a thread which was ultimately moderated out (whateverist?). I almost forgot that every thread posted by newbies there was moderated before it was posted. Not necessarily a bad thing owing to the number of trolls that atheist sites often get, but for a group trying to promote free thinking and rational discourse?

Fairly sure it was whateverist but I can't remember exactly.

(March 16, 2015 at 7:02 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Like I said, I don't follow any atheists or any atheist channels anywhere on the Internet. I've never felt the need to.

I'm an egalitarian, so the 'ideas' behind A+, especially its pro-feminism, are not something I necessarily disagreed with in their entirety (that said, I find a lot of debates on feminism are often destroyed by people on both sides of the divide who have no understanding of liberation based politics). However I found A+ to be the complete opposite of what they professed to be (inclusive, pro-equality and fairness etc). There are theist forums more welcoming than the A+ forums. Thus I am against any group that censors people simply for believing in something different (which demonstrably happened over and over again on A+ - blockbot). By all means, start a group for like minded individuals, invite and ban whoever you want. But don't expect people to like it when they're silenced for simply disagreeing. Censorship doesn't get an organisation very far in the long run, and my experiences of A+ directly and indirectly were almost entirely negative from this standpoint.

Indeed, the entire notion that there can be an organised group with an MO within atheism seems absurd to me. Heards of cats come to mind. A lot of atheists may share a common ground (political, economic, social), but their atheism is irrelevent. A lack of belief in a deity doesn't inform any of my political or social beliefs. This forum is a good example. A diverse membership, mostly atheist naturally, and many agreeing and disagreeing on various points (the owner is a libertarian for example), but you'd be hard pushed to find people saying they're [x] within atheism.

Overall, to be short, I found A+ to be completely counter productive to the cause they were trying to promote (and to which I agree with).

From the little I know I think people from A+ believe religions helps ensuring discrimination and oppression, and since they don't feel welcomed to religious forums and are atheists they decided to create a group for atheists worried about social justice... I don't see it as invalid, it's just as valid as atheists creating a group called "Atheists + liberalism" or "Atheists + conservatism" or "Atheists + socialism"

I also like NdGT, and Lawrence Kraus. I enjoyed a move called "The Unbelievers" on Netflix. Also saw "For the bible tells me so" , it was sad.

(March 16, 2015 at 7:14 pm)Dystopia Wrote:

(March 16, 2015 at 7:02 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Like I said, I don't follow any atheists or any atheist channels anywhere on the Internet. I've never felt the need to.

I'm an egalitarian, so the 'ideas' behind A+, especially its pro-feminism, are not something I necessarily disagreed with in their entirety (that said, I find a lot of debates on feminism are often destroyed by people on both sides of the divide who have no understanding of liberation based politics). However I found A+ to be the complete opposite of what they professed to be (inclusive, pro-equality and fairness etc). There are theist forums more welcoming than the A+ forums. Thus I am against any group that censors people simply for believing in something different (which demonstrably happened over and over again on A+ - blockbot). By all means, start a group for like minded individuals, invite and ban whoever you want. But don't expect people to like it when they're silenced for simply disagreeing. Censorship doesn't get an organisation very far in the long run, and my experiences of A+ directly and indirectly were almost entirely negative from this standpoint.

Indeed, the entire notion that there can be an organised group with an MO within atheism seems absurd to me. Heards of cats come to mind. A lot of atheists may share a common ground (political, economic, social), but their atheism is irrelevent. A lack of belief in a deity doesn't inform any of my political or social beliefs. This forum is a good example. A diverse membership, mostly atheist naturally, and many agreeing and disagreeing on various points (the owner is a libertarian for example), but you'd be hard pushed to find people saying they're [x] within atheism.

Overall, to be short, I found A+ to be completely counter productive to the cause they were trying to promote (and to which I agree with).

From the little I know I think people from A+ believe religions helps ensuring discrimination and oppression, and since they don't feel welcomed to religious forums and are atheists they decided to create a group for atheists worried about social justice... I don't see it as invalid, it's just as valid as atheists creating a group called "Atheists + liberalism" or "Atheists + conservatism" or "Atheists + socialism"

Can't disagree with you. If folks want to start their own association based on some core principles that may or may not stem from their lack of belief, more power to them. If they can get feet through the door so to speak, then there's obviously a good reason to set it up.

But as above, if you start something like that and are trying to convince people to follow it, you have to open it up to critique and dissent. Otherwise what's the point? Sure a lot of people who criticised Myers and A+ in general were people whose constribution was 'LUL, women deserve to get raped LOLOLOL' etc, but there were a lot of people who wanted to examine their stance in more detail and in a rational manner but who were denied that chance simply for not towing the party line. If my time on the internets in atheism 'communities' has taught me anything it's that the online atheist 'community' in general doesn't like censorship.

Anyway, I want to apologise to the OP for derailing. If you want to start a thread on A+ (oh god no!) then feel free ^_^

(March 16, 2015 at 5:09 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Generally, I'm pretty pleased with myself.

So are the rest of us, Min. You're aces, you are.

Boru

(March 16, 2015 at 6:51 pm)abentwookie Wrote: I don't want this thread to get derailed into an Atheism Plus debate but I need to address this comment. Atheism Plus was just a group within Atheism, it was never meant to represent Atheism as a whole. It was just a group for like-minded people who think atheists should do more than just debate religion. If you don't share the views of a certain group, then you don't have to be part of it. No one had a gun held to their head.

Hypocrisy - the A+'s, "PZM" in particular, claim to be rational skeptics but their ability to reason and understand a rational argument is low. The A-'s as you call them simply are the lesser biased rationalists who follow the evidence and not the fads.

(March 16, 2015 at 6:51 pm)abentwookie Wrote: How is it any different than the faction of libertarian/conservative-leaning atheists who are obsessed with attacking feminism and muslims everyday?

I haven't read the others as much but Thunderfoot's posts I am quite familiar with. He doesn't attack feminists at all, he attacks their unsupported claims. There is a huge difference between the two, A really big, vast, enormous difference.

As for attacking muslims?? Uhmm care to tell us why we should be tolerant of weaponized superstitious drivel that incites people to perform the worst atrocities on a daily basis? I'd love to hear your special opinion on that..

Let me put it this way: I had no idea who Dawkins was before joining a website such as this. I still don't care about or respect him more than other people.

(March 16, 2015 at 7:12 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(March 16, 2015 at 6:53 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Fascists despise social justice and they probably oppose 99% of the things atheism plus stands for except for the censorship part.

Atheism+ may talk like they want social justice, but they act more like their only concern is squashing dissent. Starting a movement that's supposed to be about equality while vehemently demonizing anyone that disagrees with you is just stupid.

I think their biggest mistakes is that they always assume new members are on bad faith and continue to demonize white heterosexual men to an extent no sane person on earth would support.

Quote:Can't disagree with you. If folks want to start their own association based on some core principles that may or may not stem from their lack of belief, more power to them. If they can get feet through the door so to speak, then there's obviously a good reason to set it up.

I'd say that right wing leaning atheists should form a forum, I've met some people here who lean on the right but sometimes we're not comfortable talking about our views because most people here are liberals

Quote:But as above, if you start something like that and are trying to convince people to follow it, you have to open it up to critique and dissent. Otherwise what's the point? Sure a lot of people who criticised Myers and A+ in general were people whose constribution was 'LUL, women deserve to get raped LOLOLOL' etc, but there were a lot of people who wanted to examine their stance in more detail and in a rational manner but who were denied that chance simply for not towing the party line. If my time on the internets in atheism 'communities' has taught me anything it's that the online atheist 'community' in general doesn't like censorship.

I've personally read a few random threads on A+... Some people were trolls and even argued that men were better and superior to women, etc, but others were asking legitimate questions with little to no harm

I guess every Forum administrator is allowed to make the rules, but you are not exempt from outside criticism.

Quote:I haven't read the others as much but Thunderfoot's posts I am quite familiar with. He doesn't attack feminists at all, he attacks their unsupported claims. There is a huge difference between the two, A really big, vast, enormous difference.

You have to be a complete idiot to think Tf00t doesn't genuinely take pleasure into starting a war with feminists. Curiously I haven't seen many supported claims by him b sides some idiotic analogies like "Preventing rape is similar to locking your house's door lock".

My favourite current atheist is me.