(March 16, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Brakeman Wrote: I guess god would have to brainwash them into zombies first, because otherwise it is all so stupid.

'Twould appear that is so. We have several 'god-zombies' on board.

Do you have a point or are you going to just keep begging the question? Because I can beg the question as well.

(March 18, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Lek Wrote: Jesus told us to pray to God the Father.

He's a false prophet.

Quote:He said he would not lose any of those the Father gave to him. If I go to the Father for confirmation, and the Father wants me to be with him, why would he lead me back to Satan?

Because He is not the Christian God. He's the Jewish God. God's ways are not our way, He moves in mysterious ways.

Quote: Since you haven't personally done most of the countless experiments to prove all the scientific conclusions that we accept as fact, how do know that there isn't a huge conspiracy among scientists to deceive the rest of the human race?

I'm not talking about science. I'm assuming theism is true for the sake of argument. Also don't change the topic. Argue that Jesus isn't a false prophet.

(March 18, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: Do you have a point or are you going to just keep begging the question? Because I can beg the question as well.

(March 18, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Lek Wrote: Jesus told us to pray to God the Father.

He's a false prophet.

Quote:He said he would not lose any of those the Father gave to him. If I go to the Father for confirmation, and the Father wants me to be with him, why would he lead me back to Satan?

Because He is not the Christian God. He's the Jewish God. God's ways are not our way, He moves in mysterious ways.

Quote: Since you haven't personally done most of the countless experiments to prove all the scientific conclusions that we accept as fact, how do know that there isn't a huge conspiracy among scientists to deceive the rest of the human race?

I'm not talking about science. I'm assuming theism is true for the sake of argument. Also don't change the topic. Argue that Jesus isn't a false prophet.

Sorry if you can't follow my reasoning. All I can do is go to God for my answer. If he wants me to be Jewish, then he will lead me there, not try to get me to go to hell. That's really all I've got.

But you can't even do that. The best you can manage is to go to the special book that already feeds into your presuppositions.

@Lek

How do you know what God would want? You can't say because of the Christian Bible(never mind why we should hold to anyone's interpretation of it), that would be even more circular reasoning which fails to move anything forward. Appeals to religious experiences and emotion will fail because people from other religions have those too. Think about it, even from within the Christian family of schisms and denominations with conflicting dogmas have religious experiences and feelings. Protestants have theirs, the Catholics have theirs, and liberal Karen Armstrong/John Shelby Spong types of Christians have theirs. They can't all be right. If Yahweh exists we have no way of checking to see who he is revealing himself to. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you believe anything that hasn't been proven?

I believe in things I find I have a sufficient reason to believe, that reason most of the time being evidence. Do not try to simplify complex situations into a yes or no question, we already have a guy for that.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: If there exists a supernatural being in a supernatural existence, you're not going to prove it by natural means. If there is a God, then he can show himself to us in an unnatural way.

Here's the thing, though: if there is no sign of the supernatural in the natural world, why would anyone believe it exists?

What do you mean by "unnatural way"? Everything that exists within our universe is natural.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: If he has shown me and I am convinced that he is real, then I'll believe.

That's your personal experience -- it has no value when presented in an argument. It's why you believe there is a god, not why there is a god.

How can you know it's god at all, and not satan, as was the point of this thread? How can you know it's your god and not Zeus?

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: When you look at the world do you just see a bunch of matter that is exists in various forms?

Do not start with the "atheists live in a grim reality" shit. There is nothing "just" about that "bunch of matter". I personally see the universe as absolutely breathtaking. I find that if you let go of the idea it was created by some disembodied mind, you'll see it as infinitely more fascinating.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: When I look I see matter that acts as if somebody put it together and gave it a purpose.

Type one error in cognition: false positive. Detecting patterns where there are none.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: We all view that evidence differently.

The way the natural world looks is not evidence, if that's what you're trying to say.

We all view the evidence the same, but we come to different conclusions. One of them is illogical, Lek.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: As for christianity and the bible, I believe it because I believe that's the way God has led me. I'm not a fundamentalist or one to interpret the scriptures in a strict wooden fashion, but I study them and take from them what the Spirit reveals to me.

I'm afraid you're committing circular reasoning again. You believe the bible because the Holy Spirit that is described in the bible tells you it's true.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: I came into this forum thinking that I could put forth some science and historical sources that would convince an unbeliever that God and christianity are true, but found out I couldn't. At that point of realization, I had to make a choice as to whether or not to dump it all based on that realization. The problem is, I can't do it because whenever I ask God for direction, I become convinced that I'm right. Every time I examine the natural world I live in I become convinced I'm right.

Well, funny thing, whenever I asked god for direction, nothing happened. And I became more and more convinced my doubts were well placed.

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: One other reason that I remain a christian is that I believe God reveals himself in his people.

Which ones? Why do they all disagree on fundamental principles of christianity? In what way does he do that?

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: If you stay in this forum enough, you may come to believe all the talk about how evil christians are and how atheists are actually more moral, which I don't buy. I see christians who are filled with the Spirit and living under a power that I consider beyond natural, serving God and their fellow human beings. I just see it emanating from them.

Excuse me? Haven't we just had a thread about how religious people are good and how religiosity doesn't necessarily mean immorality?

(March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Lek Wrote: That's not what you perceive, but I do, and that's evidence to me. I'm an adult now and I'm trying to experience every challenge to my faith that I can. Don't tell me I only believe because I was raised a christian. Faith evolves. I started out as an anxious catholic and have become a more relaxed "plain" christian and I assume I'll continue to evolve as I search for continuing revelation.

Listen, Lek. You're once stating that you believe for personal reasons. That's perfectly fine, of course, it's none of my business what you privately believe and I have no interest in changing it. But if you want to challenge your faith, as you say, that kind of statement, "I believe because I want to" kills all discussion. Just saying.

Lek: You are setting up criteria where you can prove to yourself god exists whether he actually does or not. Anything that happens, you'll find a way of telling yourself that god was behind it. The thing is, you can never know what, if any, supernatural force is behind anything. You can't possibly distinguish one supernatural force from another because there is no way to confirm that they exist, or were specifically responsible. Sure, you can tell yourself "it was god", but that is pure speculation. It could have been evil mind pixies laying part 529 of their world domination plan. It would look exactly the same at your end, because all you see is the result. There is nothing testable in what happens that can lead us back to a specific supernatural cause. Sure, you'll get a bunch of nice feelings after thinking it was god, but this is just your mind congratulating itself on confirming what it already believes and releasing nice chemicals into your body. It's not a way of determining truth.

It all comes down to this: do you choose reality, or do you choose a comfortable delusion which is wholly unsupported by the scientific findings of the most brilliant minds? If you discard science entirely and just randomly "believe" what you want to believe, you can't possibly have any way of knowing what you believe is true. So that's the real question. How much do you care if your beliefs are true? You'd almost certainly be talking about how Islam is true, in contradiction to Christianity, if you were born in another country. Does truth depend on where you are born?

(March 18, 2015 at 8:56 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: It is not. It isn't even irrelevant to my argument. You just beg the question by assuming God isn't letting Satan (I almost said Stan, ha!) deceive you for some good God deems greater then your personal salvation. This is my problem with Christianity even if you assume supernaturalism you still have a self-defeater namely that you can't give a good reason to believe you are not being deceived by the devil. Christianity leads to global skepticism.

---

So, if anything you've helped make my case for me.

---

The point I want to make is Biblical theism has a self-defeater because in the OT Yahweh had Satan test Job. If the scriptural data is to be trusted(as Christians say it should) it is Yahweh's character to test his creations faith. What better way to test his creations then to have Satan create a false religion called Christianity with a false prophet?

Bravo!

It seems Pizza has been stumped by his alter ego, and can't find a way to rebut!

It's obvious that we're talking apples and oranges here, and I admit that I've gotten very mystical lately. I know at this point we don't have much common ground on which to stand and discuss the issue. But some of you did challenge my reply, so for anyone who cares or can stand to listen anymore, I'm going to give this reply and then I'm gonna get out of Dodge.

I do understand your points and where you are coming from, but in talking to other believers and in my own mind, I'm convinced that you're blinded to God's revelation. We discuss scientific evidence, but have a universe that is beyond what we can conceive. Like I've said numerous times before, I view a universe without a beginning or an end as a supernatural quality. If there was a beginning, where did it come from? If there is an edge or a boundary to the universe, then what is beyond that boundary? The universe is expanding. What space is it expanding into and how far does that space stretch? Before you say it, I'll come right out an agree that this in no way proves the existence of God. If God indeed is a supernatural entity, then he reveals himself to us in a supernatural manner. In speaking for myself and many other believers, we examine the universe and we see God in it. We also believe that God puts the knowledge of himself in us when we truly seek him.

As for showing that christianity is true, rather than other faiths and religions, I'm not sure as to how to answer that question to be honest. I've got a ways to go yet. I just know that I'm a christian. I want to get with other christians and people of other faiths and find out what their experiences are. There have been countless people who have lived and died for Christ over time.

I'm going to back off from the discussion in the forum for awhile because I really don't know where to go with it anymore. I'm going to try to stay away from here, but something always seems to pull me back. I wonder if we would be better to just try to live together in love, rather than trying to convert each other before we can accept each other. Anyway, I appreciate and have enjoyed the discussions here. I wish the best to you all.