The belief system is intentionally designed so that "god" can be fickle. If you believe in this sort of thing, then ultimately, at the moment of your demise, your god can either decide whether or not you are in or out. You could have done everything right in your life and then had one slip up at the ripe old age of 89 and that ONE, singular incident banishes you to the arm pits of hell, forever. Yep, not a cray system I'll ever believe in.

I always come back to this: If god is THAT powerful then there should be 100% total happiness on earth. No starvation, no murders, no genocide, no wars, no earthquakes, no mudslides, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, no extinction of any kind of animals, no disease, no cancers. No, there wouldn't and shouldn't be any sort of misery here. But alas.... I digress.

I can't choose to believe he exists I'm afraid, even if I wanted to. I see absolutely zero evidence. Where I would expect to see evidence, there is none. Explaining reality sans a God is much easier than trying to weave a god into it. He's the omnipotent one, I'm just a dude. If he wants to play peeka boo hide and seek it's really not my problem.

See, I could just say the same about any other God. Why won't you love Odin? How can you expect him to have a relationship with you when you won't even acknoweldge him?

If god is really as large, in charge, and omniscient as the bible claims, he knew from the moment of creation, eons before any of us rationally minded atheists were born, that we would be unable to choose to believe without evidence. He also knew that less than a third of the world's population would believe in christianity. Yet, he allowed all these people to be born, knowing that under his grand plan, these billions of people would be fated to eternal torture for no other reason than not believing in him the "right way," just as he knew from the beginning they would not believe. That makes god a horrible, sadistic monster -- or, it would, if he were real.

(March 31, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Lek Wrote: What really matters is not what we think of his ways, but rather whether or not he is real.  If he does exist and these are his ways, it doesn't do me any good to sit around contemplating how stupid he is.

If the description of god or his actions doesn't make sense, I think that's a pretty important point in determining whether he is real or not.  If he were to show himself (as he did pretty frequently in the past, based on the stories) then there would be no need to try and figure it out based on old books that are wide open to interpretation.  The need to make allowances for his moral turpitude and to come up with complicated explanations to make his actions seem defensible speak against the likelihood that he is real.  If the god you worship is real, then we're in a pretty scary situation because he is arbitrary and capricious and willing to go completely against what we consider just and fair actions and there is nothing we can do about it except smile and hope he turns his attention on some other poor sucker.  Granted, it would not do us any good to sit around contemplating how evil he is.  We'd be better served learning how to hold the "grabbing your ankles" position for long stretches of time.

(March 31, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Thackerie Wrote: If god is really as large, in charge, and omniscient as the bible claims, he knew from the moment of creation, eons before any of us rationally minded atheists were born, that we would be unable to choose to believe without evidence. He also knew that less than a third of the world's population would believe in christianity. Yet, he allowed all these people to be born, knowing that under his grand plan, these billions of people would be fated to eternal torture for no other reason than not believing in him the "right way," just as he knew from the beginning they would not believe. That makes god a horrible, sadistic monster -- or, it would, if he were real.

Good question. I'm convinced that anyone who truly seeks God will find him in whatever way God decides to reveal himself.

Luke 11:9 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

And the bible says that nobody has an excuse not to believe. That means that everyone who lives can either choose to believe him or not according to the revelation he has received from him.

Romans 1:18-21English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

We can all see the evidence, and even though science can't explain the existence of the universe, we wait for science to discover that for us rather than accept the creator.

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(March 31, 2015 at 5:37 pm)Tonus Wrote: If the description of god or his actions doesn't make sense, I think that's a pretty important point in determining whether he is real or not.  If he were to show himself (as he did pretty frequently in the past, based on the stories) then there would be no need to try and figure it out based on old books that are wide open to interpretation.  The need to make allowances for his moral turpitude and to come up with complicated explanations to make his actions seem defensible speak against the likelihood that he is real.  If the god you worship is real, then we're in a pretty scary situation because he is arbitrary and capricious and willing to go completely against what we consider just and fair actions and there is nothing we can do about it except smile and hope he turns his attention on some other poor sucker.  Granted, it would not do us any good to sit around contemplating how evil he is. We'd be better served learning how to hold the "grabbing your ankles" position for long stretches of time.

You're already doing that, except instead of blaming it on God, you just accept those things as part of living in this world. What's the difference between "grabbing your ankles" as a theist or as an atheist?

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(March 31, 2015 at 2:26 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: The belief system is intentionally designed so that "god" can be fickle. If you believe in this sort of thing, then ultimately, at the moment of your demise, your god can either decide whether or not you are in or out. You could have done everything right in your life and then had one slip up at the ripe old age of 89 and that ONE, singular incident banishes you to the arm pits of hell, forever. Yep, not a cray system I'll ever believe in.

I always come back to this: If god is THAT powerful then there should be 100% total happiness on earth. No starvation, no murders, no genocide, no wars, no earthquakes, no mudslides, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, no extinction of any kind of animals, no disease, no cancers. No, there wouldn't and shouldn't be any sort of misery here. But alas.... I digress.

That's your opinion, but why must that be true? Why must God not allow these things to happen?

No.

Because hell is an imaginary place invented by the religious to scare people into following their dictates.

(March 31, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Lek Wrote:

(March 31, 2015 at 2:26 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: The belief system is intentionally designed so that "god" can be fickle. If you believe in this sort of thing, then ultimately, at the moment of your demise, your god can either decide whether or not you are in or out. You could have done everything right in your life and then had one slip up at the ripe old age of 89 and that ONE, singular incident banishes you to the arm pits of hell, forever. Yep, not a cray system I'll ever believe in.

I always come back to this: If god is THAT powerful then there should be 100% total happiness on earth. No starvation, no murders, no genocide, no wars, no earthquakes, no mudslides, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, no extinction of any kind of animals, no disease, no cancers. No, there wouldn't and shouldn't be any sort of misery here. But alas.... I digress.

That's your opinion, but why must that be true?  Why must God not allow these things to happen?

While it's my opinion, it's only my opinion. Is it true for me? Yes. Obviously that's not everyone's truth. As for why he mustn't allow for these things to happen? Well, if he want's to be a believable guy, he's going to have to do much, much better than leave the scene of the crime for over 2000 years and leave everyone else to defend him and his nonsense. If he really is the god he's cracked up to be, then he will come forward and eradicate those things which are harmful. If he really is a loving god, then he will come back and back up all the "loving" claims made on his behalf. He will show his face and not try to use his many minions to do his work.

Hell is real. Atheists go to Hell. These spiritual truths were revealed in "Heaven and Hell" by Emanuel Swedenborg.

Or we could just look at the real world to see that it doesn't.

(March 31, 2015 at 8:11 pm)Mezmo! Wrote: Hell is real. Atheists go to Hell. These spiritual truths were revealed in "Heaven and Hell" by Emanuel Swedenborg.

Really? Then explain this:

Wiki

Quote:Swedenborg wrote about Heaven and Hell based on what he said was revelation from God. According to Swedenborg, God is love itself and intends everyone to go to heaven. That was His purpose for creation.Thus, God is never angry, Swedenborg says, and does not cast anyone into Hell.