It seems to me like Lek is worshipping him because God can smack the crap out of him if he doesn't, and he feels it is futile to stand up to him. Don't question the guy with the big stick!

I'll stand up to him. If he grows a pair and turns up to face me.

(April 2, 2015 at 1:52 am)Surgenator Wrote: The freewill topic is a dodge from what Judi was talking about. Judi was calling bullshit on Lek's earlier claim on "good coming from suffering in people's lives." Freewill has nothing to do with good things coming out of suffering. 

Exactly. Nothing I said in my last post was properly addressed. The answer I got was derailing from what I posted. Why do xians do that? It's impossible to engage in a reasonable debate with them because they always skirt around any issues that call into question them having to provide proof of their claims in the bible. And when you call them out on that... they skirt around that too. It's a pattern and a bad one. Like a bad habit that can't be kicked.

I guess because the problem of evil is emotionally charged issue and disturbing to them; so, they don't want to think about it.

Mebbee atheists all go to hell, but we get to be overseers ??

Tormenting all the christians that were in the 39,999 false, heretical, blasphemous, cherry picking and apostatic denominations would be fun.

[all christers reading this post just involuntarily clenched their buttocks]

(April 2, 2015 at 5:40 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Mebbee atheists all go to hell, but we get to be overseers ??

Tormenting all the christians that were in the 39,999 false, heretical, blasphemous, cherry picking and apostatic denominations would be fun.

[all christers reading this post just involuntarily clenched their buttocks]

At least when we go we can point and laugh at them  
Though for the most part we are good people we wouldn't really get punished for anything. 

(April 2, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Mezmo! Wrote: Read further.

He doesn't cast people into hell they go there on there on their own because they has embraced falsities that prevent them from receiving grace.

Still immoral: even if someone directly wished to do themselves harm, the proper, humane thing to do is to stop them and get them help, not simply stand back with your hands in the air, all helpless, while they hurt themselves. That's why suicide prevention is a thing at all, and self harm is considered bad.

vorlon1 Wrote:Mebbee atheists all go to hell, but we get to be overseers ??

The big secret is that long ago some vaguely rational cookie has told Satan that what he's doing is just playing into god's hands, and so Hell is now full of an ever growing number of people all spending their time in peace and devoting a portion of that to getting back at god. The gates of Hell are open, it's just that people find it a much more equitable place to go about the truly satisfying work of bringing down the dictator who decided eternal torment was a fitting fate for anyone.

(April 2, 2015 at 12:12 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't understand why God must remove all these things from the world in order to be loving, and I do see good coming from suffering.  If you give your children everything and shield them from all adversity, all you will end up with is spoiled brats who are unable to fend for themselves.  If we approach suffering rightly, it will make us stronger and better people.

This seems to imply that Adam and Eve were created with the need to suffer adversity, lest they become spoiled, defenseless brats.  Which would explain why Eve so readily fell for the serpent's story and why Adam so quickly ate of the fruit as well.  God, having designed humans to require some form of strife in order to develop properly, gives them paradise and coddles them, and the end result is unavoidable.  The story also would imply that this extends to spirit creatures, else the devil would never have been.

That further implies that all living beings are part of an inescapable cycle unless god deliberately re-wires everyone, thus eliminating free will.  Either he "fixes"everyone so that they cannot ever break the rules again, or we continue to run the risk of having it too good for too long, which inevitably leads us to hell.  If there are multiple gods this may just be his part in some multi-verse reality show where he's competing to see who can screw over the most people.  If there's only the one god, then he's doing it for his own amusement or because he's just that incompetent.  I'm not sure which is more horrifying.

(April 2, 2015 at 12:12 pm)Lek Wrote: You all seem to have no problem of accepting the reality of suffering until you inject God into the situation.  You know that there are disasters, sickness, wars, crime and so on in the world and you just go on dealing with it.  Most of the claims that I have heard in this forum state that the person's life is going pretty well despite all the horrors in the world.  I don't understand why God must remove all these things from the world in order to be loving, and I do see good coming from suffering.  If you give your children everything and shield them from all adversity, all you will end up with is spoiled brats who are unable to fend for themselves.  If we approach suffering rightly, it will make us stronger and better people.  And I never try to make excuses for God.  If he does something a certain way, that's his business.  I just try to live with what I have to face, with his help, knowing my goal.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out...s-stronger

 Yes, god must remove infant rape, at the least, for me to see your version of a deity as loving.  What good can come from what this very young child suffered? How does the existence of the sexual abuse of a baby keep the rest of us from being spoiled brats?

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/i...ces_f.html

Quote:GRAND RAPIDS, MI - A Comstock Park couple's rape of a 1-year-old girl while they video recorded the act has resulted in a possible life sentence for the woman and three consecutive life sentences for the male.

and

Quote:The pair admitted they raped the 1-year-old daughter of a friend sometime around Oct. 25, 2012, in an apartment where the baby girl's brother and the couple's own children were present outside a locked bedroom door. The couple took turns recording one another assaulting the child, according to court records.

Leiber said that Foehl offered up the child as "sexual sacrifice" to Emory, but she also sexually assaulted the child. Police say the man raped the infant in a variety of ways

Hopefully, the infant will become a mentally healthy adult despite what she suffered but why the hell is such horrific abuse necessary to make a child stronger? What kind of strength does your god want this poor child to have?

(April 2, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(April 2, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Mezmo! Wrote: Read further.

He doesn't cast people into hell they go there on there on their own because they has embraced falsities that prevent them from receiving grace.

Still immoral...

Saith the nihilist who has no rational foundation on which to build an ethical system.

I "accept" all the suffering in the world, because I have no reason to think there is any alternative. This is reality. People and animals suffer, and it is absolutely horrible. It breaks my heart so much I have to block it out in order to function. I do what I can to ease the suffering, and to try and encourage others to do the same. But neither I nor anyone else has the kind of power needed to fundamentally alter how the universe works.

This is what you would expect from a group of evolved life forms on a rock flying through space. Bad shit is going to happen.

But just suddenly having God appear in the middle of all this mess is ridiculous. If you assume this planet and its life were somehow crafted, by someone who isn't a sick fuck, you would expect to see something entirely different. People's minds are grounded by the part of their brain that deals with reality and accepts suffering is just something that happens, but then contradicted by the part of their brain that says someone is behind all this and only wants good things. Where did all this horrible shit come from? God either designed or permitted every atrocious thing such as drowning in water, needing to keep eating or else you die a hideous slow death, bacteria which attack you and cause horrible diseases, the desire to rape and murder...

Or, if you think this is "good enough", and god really couldn't have done any better, then you think he is either incompetent or uncaring. He made the rules, remember.

Unless the rules were already there? Did he have to work around such arbitrary restrictions as "people have to suffer to appreciate happiness"?

Bah. I'm getting a bit tired of this. Apologising for God being such a dick sounds exactly like an abused spouse who is so mentally broken down they think they deserve the beatings they get, and that they need their abuser. The saddest thing of all is the fact that this abuse is coming from a figment of their own imagination. It makes me so sad