(January 19, 2009 at 3:59 pm)dagda Wrote: Blake once said 'If it were not for the Poetic or Prophetical Character, the Philosophic and Experimental would soon be at the ratio of all things and stand still, unable to do other than repeat the same dull round over again.' I am inclined to agree. Falling outwith the realm of science does not make anything more or less valid.

So atheists don't have imagination can't appreciate art? Do you even know what the scientific method entails? I love art, I love fiction, I love music (Whether such things are in reverence to a god or not) I however can differentiate from what is real and what is imagined. I can discuss all day what might be a nice theory of how the world works but I realize that doesn't make it true. The only way we have ever been able to find out what is true is through science and reason. The reason you can communicate with us, with people all around the world, is science. The reason you have alarm clock to wake you up in the morning, a tv to entertain you, a microwave to cook food. All this shit happens because of the scientific method. No prophet or poet made this stuff happen. No prophet or poet can figure out how to go to moon. That's all science baby, and it pushes the limits of our imagination every day. We never knew how truly vast this universe, how beautiful it was until science got out there and discovered it.

Quote: I don't think atheism is much of a philosophy if it can not promote itself without giving the negitive of another philosophy. Why are you atheist?

Atheism isn't a philosophy. It's a single stance on one issue, which is god. We simply don't accept the claim there is a god. As for what philosophy I adhere to? I personally agree with Secular Humanism.

And honestly, any philosophy is a negative of another philosophy otherwise what would be the point of being a different philosophy? But atheism as a belief does have a unique characterization of being something that your are not. Why? Because everyone assumes you believe in god and it's so ingrained in our society that people ignore us and try pretend we don't exist or say that we just need to shut up. So we have to come out and say we don't believe in god or the people who do will continue to push their ideals onto government and trample on our right to be free from religion?

Why am I an atheist? Because there's no proof that there is a god, no religion has done anything to prove their beliefs. It's as simple as that.

The burden of proof is with the claimant. Therefore as a Christain you need the prove the existance of God rather than an atheist's burden to disprove. So far your only proof is an old book and 2000 years of spin.

(January 19, 2009 at 4:29 pm)lilphil1989 Wrote: Now if I may ask a question, why do you belive your mythology and not that of, for example, the Vikings? After all, there is as much evidence for Thor as there is for your Sophia.
Why are you not a jew, not a muslim, not a jehovah's witness, not a follower of Zeus?

When you realise why you reject other religions, you'll begin to understand why we reject yours.

But I don't reject other religions. I am with the Dali Lama on this one in my opinion that all religions are a route to the same thing. I just prefer my way. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right-I will find out soon enough.

(January 19, 2009 at 4:50 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote:

(January 19, 2009 at 3:59 pm)dagda Wrote: Blake once said 'If it were not for the Poetic or Prophetical Character, the Philosophic and Experimental would soon be at the ratio of all things and stand still, unable to do other than repeat the same dull round over again.' I am inclined to agree. Falling outwith the realm of science does not make anything more or less valid.

So atheists don't have imagination can't appreciate art? Do you even know what the scientific method entails? I love art, I love fiction, I love music (Whether such things are in reverence to a god or not) I however can differentiate from what is real and what is imagined. I can discuss all day what might be a nice theory of how the world works but I realize that doesn't make it true. The only way we have ever been able to find out what is true is through science and reason. The reason you can communicate with us, with people all around the world, is science. The reason you have alarm clock to wake you up in the morning, a tv to entertain you, a microwave to cook food. All this shit happens because of the scientific method. No prophet or poet made this stuff happen. No prophet or poet can figure out how to go to moon. That's all science baby, and it pushes the limits of our imagination every day. We never knew how truly vast this universe, how beautiful it was until science got out there and discovered it.

I think you are wrong in this one. Before the romantic movement mountians were things to be avoided. The poet changed this perception so that people concidered them beutiful. And so reality was changed. The mountians transform into majestic areas through our changed perception so, reality is altered by our perception. The mountians have not changed but, to all intents and purposes, they may as well have.

Yes science has given us great things, but that does not demean the other art forms in any way. Without poetry and painting, how are we to appriciate the beuty of the discoveries science has made? Are the Northern Lights to remain gases reacting in the atmosphere? Science and art spring from the same source, one is useless without the other.

(January 20, 2009 at 10:14 am)dagda Wrote: But I don't reject other religions. I am with the Dali Lama on this one in my opinion that all religions are a route to the same thing. I just prefer my way.

And what route may that be, and where would this supposed route lead to?

The route is spiritual furfillment and peace of mind. Atheists can get there too, of course, I just think it is a longer route. Where the route leads? Who knows, thats half the fun of the journey.

Obviusly, when I talk of furfillment, I talk of the religions which are true to there core function. Once the mind of humanity is clouded by the cloak of ignorance, the wolves decend.

(January 20, 2009 at 2:01 pm)dagda Wrote: The route is spiritual furfillment and peace of mind. Atheists can get there too, of course, I just think it is a longer route. Where the route leads? Who knows, thats half the fun of the journey.

What makes you think there is a route at all? Is it not just the same as reiki, homoeopathy, and crystal healing (i.e., a waste of time and money)?

(January 20, 2009 at 2:01 pm)dagda Wrote: Obviusly, when I talk of furfillment, I talk of the religions which are true to there core function. Once the mind of humanity is clouded by the cloak of ignorance, the wolves decend.

Ah, the old No True Scotsman. Any religion which has done bad things wasn't really a religion

(January 20, 2009 at 10:14 am)dagda Wrote: I think you are wrong in this one. Before the romantic movement mountians were things to be avoided. The poet changed this perception so that people concidered them beutiful. And so reality was changed. The mountians transform into majestic areas through our changed perception so, reality is altered by our perception. The mountians have not changed but, to all intents and purposes, they may as well have

If you're going to make a broad statement like that, back it up with proof or a real example, because honestly I think you're pulling this out of your ass. I've never heard anything so silly. Exploration of this world has always been pushed forward by greed or curiousity. America was discovered (and I use the term discovered loosely) by greed to find the best route to the east and also for Columbus to prove his theory, not because poets said the ocean is pretty.

Quote: Yes science has given us great things, but that does not demean the other art forms in any way. Without poetry and painting, how are we to appriciate the beuty of the discoveries science has made? Are the Northern Lights to remain gases reacting in the atmosphere? Science and art spring from the same source, one is useless without the other.

You completely missed my point. I love art and poetry. I am in fact an artist. I love to read fantasy books and just because someone writes a poem about unicorns doesn't make it real. Religion doesn't have some monopoly over art. Imagination comes in all shapes and sizes. The difference is a reality based view on life actually know what's imagination and what is real.

Furthermore, reality based beliefs doesn't mean we appreciate art any less or the wonders of the world. I love looking at the stars and the sky. I love sunsets and mountain sceneries. Just because I know a star is a ball of nuclear fusion doesn't make them any less wonderful. In fact I think they make them more wonderful and fascinating. Knowing how the colours form in the Northern Lights is just as amazing to me as the event itself.

Get your head out of this notion that having a reality/science based belief system means your have no imagination or appreciate for art, that science is cold and boring, because if you actually know anything about it science is amazing and beautiful. And when it comes to finding out what is actually true about this world, it's science that accomplishes it. ALWAYS.

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(January 20, 2009 at 2:01 pm)dagda Wrote: The route is spiritual furfillment and peace of mind. Atheists can get there too, of course, I just think it is a longer route. Where the route leads? Who knows, thats half the fun of the journey.

You mean religion provides dogma and half truths, unsupported assertions about how the world came to be. Comforting lies about the reality of death, promotion of bigotry and violence. Sure, that's peace of mind.

Quote: Obviusly, when I talk of furfillment, I talk of the religions which are true to there core function. Once the mind of humanity is clouded by the cloak of ignorance, the wolves decend.

A religion's core function is to subjugate and promote false beliefs. Those who believe in the dogma's of religion are the most ignorant because they accept the dogmas that they have to worship to go to heaven, supress their sexuality, always be mindful of their thoughts, give their hard earned money to the clergy, ignore science and it's advancements, the list goes on.

(January 20, 2009 at 3:05 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Furthermore, reality based beliefs doesn't mean we appreciate art any less or the wonders of the world. I love looking at the stars and the sky. I love sunsets and mountain sceneries. Just because I know a star is a ball of nuclear fusion doesn't make them any less wonderful. In fact I think they make them more wonderful and fascinating. Knowing how the colours form in the Northern Lights is just as amazing to me as the event itself.

No longer shrouded in mystery, the naked beauty of the universe shone through.

(January 20, 2009 at 3:05 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: America was discovered (and I use the term discovered loosely) by greed to find the best route to the east and also for Columbus to prove his theory, not because poets said the ocean is pretty.

Which theory of Columbus are you talking about? The myth that he set out to prove the Earth was round, or the fact that he set out to prove the Earth was small (which he failed at)?

I'd have to agree that the story of columbus is a bad one to use as an example as it is largely myth with different variations.

However, I would agree based on what I know about human nature, that greed would be a very common motivation for exploration. However, there are plenty of other reasons as well. We are a curious species and the thrill of discovery is not lost on us, we might also move to escape opression and hope to discover safety. So I guess my point is while as a whole we do tend to search for our own gain, we have many other motivations, even ones as simple as we might explore just to explore.

I also submit this video, Dawkins provides insight on how science can be a wonderous and amazing thing. I think it is also relevant to earlier posts. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=19jCQLm-zOc