A lot of Christians say that atheism, particularly Stalinism, has killed more people then religious conflicts. I wouldn't yet say that I am a full-fledged atheist, but is this true? PLEASE note that this question is not meant to offend anyone on these forums; I'm just looking for the truth on this issue.

No. Religion has killed more people than atheism and Stalinism could ever dream of killing.

I completely agree chasm, religious beliefs have been the cause of much bloodshed and this continues to be so even in today's modern age. Christianity particularly has a good track record of murder and mayhem but this applies to religious beliefs in general. And some of those killings were of completely innocent people who were killed because of the superstitions of the bible, such as the witch hunts where people were being murdered for so called being in league with the Devil. Atheism is not a religion so I don't see how it can kill anyone, the lack of a belief in a god does not mean that we are immoral murderers etc. I feel that most of the claims that Christians make against atheism are completely false and baseless.

(September 5, 2010 at 11:16 am)dave4shmups Wrote: A lot of Christians say that atheism, particularly Stalinism, has killed more people then religious conflicts. I wouldn't yet say that I am a full-fledged atheist, but is this true? PLEASE note that this question is not meant to offend anyone on these forums; I'm just looking for the truth on this issue.

Well, I assume you're thinking about Nazis and the communists, so let me point out why it would be wrong to conflate the killings committed in the name of either ideology with atheism.

Nazis- This one is easier, so I'll just say it. The Nazis weren't atheists. Granted, many of the higher-ups in the Nazi Party were adherents to a bizarre form of paganism, and the religion of Hitler himself is up to debate, but it's clear that as soon as they took power, they effectively banned anti-religious movements (surprisingly, even before the Nuremberg Laws), and it's clear that a big part of the public acceptance of such a raving anti-semite is due to the fact that Christianity made it acceptable to hate Jews for many centuries (remember Christians claiming that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death?)

Communism- Of course, all the brutal leaders of the Communist movements were atheists (like Stalin or Chairman Mao), but It would be an oversimplification to claim that their brutality is due to atheism. In essence, when there were persecutions, almost never were they solely against those who follow religion, but religious followers are usually seen as one of a long list of "enemies of the state."

(September 5, 2010 at 11:47 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 5, 2010 at 11:16 am)dave4shmups Wrote: A lot of Christians say that atheism, particularly Stalinism, has killed more people then religious conflicts. I wouldn't yet say that I am a full-fledged atheist, but is this true? PLEASE note that this question is not meant to offend anyone on these forums; I'm just looking for the truth on this issue.

Well, I assume you're thinking about Nazis and the communists, so let me point out why it would be wrong to conflate the killings committed in the name of either ideology with atheism.

Nazis- This one is easier, so I'll just say it. The Nazis weren't atheists. Granted, many of the higher-ups in the Nazi Party were adherents to a bizarre form of paganism, and the religion of Hitler himself is up to debate, but it's clear that as soon as they took power, they effectively banned anti-religious movements (surprisingly, even before the Nuremberg Laws), and it's clear that a big part of the public acceptance of such a raving anti-semite is due to the fact that Christianity made it acceptable to hate Jews for many centuries (remember Christians claiming that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death?)

Communism- Of course, all the brutal leaders of the Communist movements were atheists (like Stalin or Chairman Mao), but It would be an oversimplification to claim that their brutality is due to atheism. In essence, when there were persecutions, almost never were they solely against those who follow religion, but religious followers are usually seen as one of a long list of "enemies of the state."

I agree, and, AFIK, Martin Luther's violently anti-semitic comments inspired the Holocaust.

When dealing with people who make such statements, Dave, you must always bear in mind that you are dealing with idiots.

Stalin mainly killed people who opposed forced collectivization because they opposed forced collectivization. Not because he wanted them to stop worshiping whatever inane variant of 'god' they worshiped.

The Crusaders massacred muslims and jews because they were muslims and jews. Rational people are able to understand this distinction. Religious shitwits are apparently incapable of getting it.

Hitler thought of himself as a fine xtian. And he was.

(September 5, 2010 at 11:16 am)dave4shmups Wrote: A lot of Christians say that atheism, particularly Stalinism, has killed more people then religious conflicts. I wouldn't yet say that I am a full-fledged atheist, but is this true? PLEASE note that this question is not meant to offend anyone on these forums; I'm just looking for the truth on this issue.

No, that's b*ll*cks. And if you are not a fully fledged theist in disguise then I'm Carmen Miranda!

As Richard Dawkins said on some Australian program, there is no direct link that can be made between atheism (i.e. the disbelief in gods) and murder. You can, however, make a direct link between some religions and murder.

This isn't to say that all religious people are murderers, or that no murderers can be atheists. Murderers come in all shapes and sizes, but atheism cannot be said to be a motivator for murder, whilst some religions can (through certain interpretation of doctrine). Just look at all the abortion center bombings in recent years.

One huge misconception that theists (Christians in particular) hold about atheism is that it is a way of life or some sort of 'ungodly' philosophy. It's not. Perhaps atheist leaders have been responsible for mass murder, but it certainly wasn't because they were atheists. Quite the opposite concerning the atrocities at the feet of Christianity.

(September 5, 2010 at 11:59 am)Darwinian Wrote:

(September 5, 2010 at 11:16 am)dave4shmups Wrote: A lot of Christians say that atheism, particularly Stalinism, has killed more people then religious conflicts. I wouldn't yet say that I am a full-fledged atheist, but is this true? PLEASE note that this question is not meant to offend anyone on these forums; I'm just looking for the truth on this issue.

No, that's b*ll*cks. And if you are not a fully fledged theist in disguise then I'm Carmen Miranda!

I I I I I I like you very much........

Any way Stalin attacked the power of the church because it was a rival to his power.
He wanted to rule by dictat and had seen how in the past the church had curtailed the rule of the czars.
This was helped by the Czars being into superstitions like christianity. Stalin was free to act as he did because he shared no such delusion.

But Stalins acts had precedant in russia, it was not really different from the czars pogroms against the jews except in scale and the religion it targeted.