(April 26, 2015 at 8:44 am)Nestor Wrote:

(April 26, 2015 at 8:40 am)Pizza Wrote: And the alternative is? 

To what?

DSM. When people normally say something like the DSM has problems they then jump to whatever pet conclusions they like. However, I guess that wasn't your point so nevermind. 

My friend back in the 70s made this remark about perceived gender and what it really means:

"They may have hair on their chest, but so does Lassie."


She was saying it depends more on what is going on inside than what the outward appearances might indicate. And even in her case, none of us realized she was female regardless of her hormone issues, not even her. It is amazing to me how much better our understanding of these issues are these days, at least out of the closed mind community.

(April 26, 2015 at 7:10 am)Nestor Wrote:

(April 25, 2015 at 8:17 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: To inflict what, exactly? They aren't inflicting anything on her. She has a condition called Gender Identity Disorder. She was born physically male and mentally female. This is a condition recognized by the DSM-V. It has been studied, and because of the advancement of society, is being de-stigmatized. They are allowing her to express her true self, and make a bigger decision about surgery as a 14-15 year old by delaying puberty so she will have a more complete transition if she so chooses.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the DSM-V. It has been widely criticized for lacking empirical support for many of its classifications: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5

I get this, but GID has been described in the DSM since DSM-III. The major criticisms of DSM-V were the lack of transparency in the formation process, and a criticism in the entire field of psychology has always been a lack of empirical evidence. So much of the field is predicated on patient testimony that this is inevitable. I don't treat DSM as gospel, if that's what you are getting at. My point was that these parents aren't "inflicting" some made up thing on their child. Gender Dysphoria is a recognized thing. It's causes are unknown, it's expression is largely a mystery, but it is described as what it appears to be. It was a response to the idea that this is necessarily something the parents were suffering from and inflicting on their child. It is not.

(April 26, 2015 at 6:56 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Frankly, if she really wants to become a woman, she should be given that choice after proper diagnosis and counseling to make sure it's not from some pressure or psychological manipulation. I am glad she has such supportive parents though. I mean same gender couples have to deal with a lot in their own lives as it is, and after that being so supportive in this case takes a lot of courage.

She has been given that choice after proper diagnosis and counseling; how do you figure she hasn't?

Quote:What amazes me however is that how a three year old toddler knows the difference between genders and how they are "supposed" to be like. This kind of proves that gender identities go a bit deeper than just societal norms.

What three-year-old toddler?  We're talking about an eleven-year-old getting hormone blockers to halt puberty so she can make a more informed decision after a few years and more counseling.

(April 26, 2015 at 6:27 am)I_am_not_mafia Wrote: Has anyone here who is fully limbed experienced a phantom limb?

That's an example of the body not matching the make-up of the brain.

Are you able to experience it?

Inversely, people suffering from Body integrity identity disorder feel as if they have an extra limb and would be happier if it was amputated. Can we actually understand how that feels if we are not afflicted that way ourselves? Not without a great amount of difficulty. That's because our brains match our bodies. With trangendered people it does nt. So when people say that they don't feel either male or female, what they are actually saying is that they are not transgendered.

So rather than just dismiss what the child is going through based on a lack of personal understanding, let's have some acknowledgement that gender dysphoria is a genuine medical problem that has been studied for many decades by an often hostile medical establishment which has eventually come to the conclusion that the only way to treat the condition is the way that they are currently treating this child.

Unless you want to claim that your own personal feelings should carry more weight than a body of evidence obtained using the scientific method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integr...y_disorder

If one's mind and body do not match up, how does one decide whether it is the mind or the body that should be changed?  Upon what basis is such a decision made?

(April 26, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: If one's mind and body do not match up, how does one decide whether it is the mind or the body that should be changed?  Upon what basis is such a decision made?

Whichever is possible would be my guess, in the case of transgendered people it's the body

(April 26, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: If one's mind and body do not match up, how does one decide whether it is the mind or the body that should be changed?  Upon what basis is such a decision made?

Well the medical establishment spent many decades trying to change the brain of transgendered patients at least and have failed. The only remedy proven to lead to the possibility of a happy and contented life is to change the body.

(April 25, 2015 at 8:00 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Why do you find it disturbing? The kid was diagnosed by a doctor who studies it with Gender Identity Disorder. This is more reasonable than almost anything I can think of. They are delaying puberty until the kid is older so she can make a decision about moving forward at that time.

I'm not sure what's so controversial here.

I agree

If she is sure she identifies as a female instead of a male, and it's something she's felt for a long time, not a phase, then she's ready to transition (or at least block puberty).

There are also benefits to starting younger. If she went through male puberty, she could grow more masculine. By blocking puberty, they'll be able to keep her body smaller, less hairy and more feminine until she is old enough to transition properly. The result is she will be able to pass as a biological woman much easier. It's also still reversible at this point if she changes her mind and wants to identify as a male again, she can simply come off the puberty blockers and start puberty later.

This is also a personal choice that doesn't really affect anyone else, so I don't think it warrants unsolicited comments. Also that article referenced is mis-gendering her. She's already said she is not a boy or a "he".

She is old enough to know. Children experience gender from the moment they are born. It's "blue for boys and pink for girls". It's "boys play football and girls play with dolls". If you are a gender-nonconforming child, by GOD you know it. You're reminded every time you pick up your toys or leave your house. I'm not transgender myself, but I was somewhat feminine as a child. I always knew I was "not like other boys", I didn't know I was gay obviously, but because I was more interested in doing whatever the girls were doing. I had to be reminded "girls do that, you're a boy" whenever I did something boys "aren't supposed to do". So yes, children know about gender, it's shoved in their faces.

Louis Theroux does a really good documentary on this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05qkzt2

What if the child develops a desire to be a male? What would the long term effects of the anti puberty drug have on his development?