(April 26, 2015 at 11:55 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: Many individuals do and then they get shunned as sell-outs.

This comes back to the "don't snitch" mentality that seems so prevalent. So many people in black communities just seem to be against the law and everyone trying to help. They see the police, and the government as the enemy. 

In some ways, it's understandable, but it isn't conducive to helping their problem. 

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(April 27, 2015 at 5:21 am)Dystopia Wrote: Let's start with the obvious:

There's many definitions of racism we can find - Some are short and narrow, others encompass a large number of scenarios - I'm going to define racism as prejudice + social power - The reason why I'm using this definition is because it's (and has been) the most relevant form of racism. If one group holds little social power they could even form the most supremacist group that it would have almost no effect on society.

I completely disagree with this. What you're talking about is not racism. Not my understanding of it anyway. You're applying a lot more baggage and using it as a blanket term for systematic oppression. That's just not what it is. Systematic oppression is systematic oppression. Racism isn't automatically systematic oppression. Systematic oppression could be caused by deep rooted racism, but they aren't one and the same.

Quote:In this case it's obvious that blacks have less social power and that's visible by looking at important positions in society like CEO's, media, politicians,etc. Prejudice + power is relevant because it allows one group to fuck the other, even when it's not done explicitly.

Is this racism though? Or economics?

Quote:This is why you hear the "blacks can't be racist" phrase - It's not because blacks can't hold prejudice, but even if they did they have no power to implement measures to fuck the other group and no one will care.

This is insane. It's essentially saying, it's ok for black people to be racist because it doesn't impact anyone. Which is pure fucking bullshit.

Quote:I believe that racism as supremacy of one group (like the KKK or the Aryan Brotherhood) has little relevance and few people support it. In most countries where most people are white you can always find a group of nuts, but it's usually small and labelled as extremist (like the BNP in Britain). However, that is not synonym with "racism is over". You see, the smartest form of racism is not explicit violence but what sociologists label "institutionalized racism", and that's an issue that still exists in modern society. When we're talking about this kind of racism it's about one group holding much more power than the other and either directly or indirectly contributing to marginalization. IT happens all the time and it works trough our prejudices, subconscious stereotypes, etc. Since I'm not a pro I advise you to google the definition because specialists know better than me

I'm not sure what you're even getting at here. I suggest you go back and watch the video again because it seems to be you really didn't understand it. The guy himself said, racism still exists. I understand what racism is. I know what it isn't. I know what institutionalized racism is. I know what it isn't.

Quote:The issue with the video is that it makes it look easier as if it was just a matter of working hard. It's not simple, it's not easy. You see, getting dealt a shitty hand sucks, and sometimes you can win with a shitty hand, but if you've played poker you know it's complicated. If you are dealt a 2-9 in a classical poker game chances are you will fold right away. Another problem right there is that no one in the casino gets dealt a worse hand for being black (I think), or if you got a bad hand because the dealer didn't know how to mix the cards correctly.

I think you've imagined up something here. He wasn't saying it was easy at all. But the fact that so many don't even try is the fucking problem.

Ofcourse it's not just as simple as rejecting the thug life. Ofcourse it's not just as simple as working hard and digging yourself out of a hole. OFCOURSE.

You would think this goes without saying?

What the guy in the video is saying, isn't that it's easy, rather that it's possible. And many in black communities don't do themselves any favours by not trying. Like he said, instead of blaming the cops for pulling you over because "you're black", blame the black people who came before you who gave them the excuse to be that prejudiced. Stop blaming others and do what you can to get out of the situation or make your neighbourhood a better place to live. Can you honestly say the vast majority of black people in America do that? Doesn't look that way to me. Yes there's issues that need to be addressed, yes institutionalized racism shouldn't happen, but as of right now I honestly don't see the black community in general doing anything constructive to aid their problems.

Quote:This works in a vicious cycle - Basically, you may be just poor, but chances are that the nearest schools has criminals from the ghetto as well. Since you are poor your clothes are old and dirty, so people will see you as a thug (If you're white you'll be seen as hipster/hippie, at least it's what happens to me) so it's hard to avoid police harassment or noticing people's fear in their eyes even if you mean no harm. Since your school sucks your education will suck as well, so finding a job is more complicated, or getting into college. On top of that, the chances of getting the job as black, even with affirmative action, are lower because of things like ingrained bias. If you add the fact blacks are arrested far more often, and for things like carrying marijuana (don't forget the US profits from incarceration so maybe they need to imprison people and blacks are the easy target), the fact they are more marginalized in school, wage gaps , housing discrimination, etc - It's all fucked up and immensely complex. It really is, and while you mentioned choices sometimes there is none to zero. And the worst part is - Many of these prejudices stop blacks from getting out of poverty and achieving equality. When you are that fucked up, turning to a group of brothas may be the only choice, and the cycle repeats itself with your kids

I'm not buying it. It's bullshit. All I see is excuse, excuse, excuse. So many say "there's no opportunity", so many say there's no jobs or they can't get one because they're black. It's fucking bullshit frankly. Might not be popular but it's the truth.

Racism isn't what is causing people to gain a criminal record by the age of 12. Racism isn't what's causing the police bias of black people. Racism is a symptom not a cause.

But even regardless. This isn't about racism. This is economics. I really urge you to watch Ross Kemp in Memphis. Does a lot better of a job explaining it. That people use racism, or prejudice as an excuse for not getting a job and standing on street corners selling dope is the problem. It's not the 'system' keeping people down. It's themselves. Okay, the system is the way it is and it's the reason they are in the mess in the first place, sure, that can be fixed and it should be fixed. But poor people have always existed. Is it an excuse to go out committing crimes? To turn your neighbourhood into a slum? To have the highest murder rates? To have gang violence? No.

I've seen some black people moan about getting pulled over all the time. Maybe if they had the following guys attitude eventually they wouldn't have the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN_Gxa_0rRo

Quote:
I don't think whites should feel guilty for slavery, but when blacks blame others they aren't blaming any specific white - That's what whites fail to see

Nope. I don't fail to see that at all. I had nothing to do with slavery. Do I think some black people blame me when they blame whites? Ofcourse not. That would be stupid.

Quote:They are blaming a system that doesn't give a shit about them and tells them they should work harder even when it's noticeable it just doesn't work. The blame on slavery isn't right now because of the harm done in the past, it's because it caused massive segregation, lack of education (and thus blacks have lower IQ's), and the effects are still felt today very strongly because one group simply started way ahead.

Again, excuses. I'd just be going over what I've already said here. Slavery was a looong time ago. Civil rights have been won. When they're born in the ghetto, it's not about slavery. It's not about racism. It's about economics.

Nothing you've mentioned excuses bad behaviour or a lack of desire to make your community better. Yet so many in the black community display these two things, and then bitch about inequality afterwards. There's your fucking problem. People need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Quote:I'm putting a comic here that pretty much shows my point

That comic is so incredibly stupid I don't even want to comment on it.

Quote:You see? It's really how it happened. Whites released blacks from slavery and shit on them. Even with affirmative action it isn't enough. Things like criminality and poverty are really not choices - Criminality is, at the most, a rational choice people make when it's reliable, few criminals are psychopaths, they do it for a variety of reasons. Since many blacks grow up in the ghetto and have a need for social interaction they join the group that will protect them - The brothas.

Yet again making excuses for criminality.

I really get the sense reading more and more from you that there isn't even going to be an understanding here. I just plain think you are viewing this shit through rose tinted glasses and won't understand the situation because of it. This is the problem for me. Far too many point their finger at 'the man' and use it as an excuse to do wrong. Literally right above me you've just used a ludicrous comic attributing racism and inequality blindly to 'the white man' and use it to blame the all the woes of black people on slavery. It's honestly just ridiculous.

Quote:All of this to say that - No, it isn't that simple, and racism still exists. Not KKK racism (at least not much) but institutionalized racism that affects people's lives in things like (1) Police violence (And yes whites suffer it too but being white doesn't increase the chances of getting shot) (2) Wage and job gaps (3) college gaps (4)Racial profiling (5) School to prison pipeline (6)Housing discrimination (7) Poverty

None of this has to do with black people in black communities making their own lives shitter instead of better.

Quote:I actually think you are just genuinely trying to understand the issue so I hope this cleared things up.

Quite honestly I think I understand the issue, and at the risk of sounding rude, I think you're the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ofcourse there's inequality that still persists in America, ofcourse some cops are racist assholes and commit injustices everyday. It may well be that the 'black man' finds it harder to get a job. But the answer to these problems isn't to blame everyone else in society and use it as an excuse to commit crimes or get into gangs. People like you, and I seriously mean no disrespect when I use that term, are enablers for people in the black community who do want to use these things as excuses. I wish people would just stop with the blame, with the excuses, and instead focus on doing what they can to make the situation better for themselves.

(April 26, 2015 at 9:10 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It's basically the "is there free will?" and thus "can people really choose?"

Honestly as you may have noticed I just arrived home and I'm really tired so I'm not going to type a long rant on what I think about the subject while I'm sleepy - I'll do it tomorrow (it's a promise!).

That. Also I was aiming to make implicit the compatibilist view being held since I doubt he was assuming contra-causal free will. The compatibilist view is just a semantic shell game, yes I know that's harsh words. Free will as choice without coercion is empty and useless concept since even a mentally ill person is free but we don't play the blame game with them.

I wouldn't for a minute claim that I have the same experiences as black USians, but maybe I can offer some perspective why 'personal responsibility' isn't always enough.

I grew up in Northern Ireland, scion of a long line of Nationalists.  I was a country cub, so I didn't experience bigotry on a significant scale until I moved to Belfast for uni.  At various times, I have been denied housing, employment and loans.  I have been detained by the police on several occasions (the longest time was just over seven months), but was never formally charged with anything.  While in the nick, I was refused legal counsel and communication with my family.  I've had cars and motorcycles impounded for 'investigatory reasons', and always got them back in worse condition than before - and was charged for police time and trouble.  And what warranted all of this?  An Irish surname.

That's all it takes.  I matured at a time when the RUC was around 90% Loyalist, and the targeting of suspected Nationalists was rampant (things are better now, I'm led to believe).  Constant hassles by the cops, institutionalized prejudice, and minority rights a polite fiction.  And it wasn't just the peelers, although they were the face of it.  Magistrates, estate agents, shopmen of all sorts - if you were Irish, you were fair game for shabby treatment.  Money didn't matter, education didn't matter, good manners didn't matter (as to the last, I once saw a kid of about 19 years at an outdoor cafe take a truncheon to the face for not standing up quickly enough to suit the cop) - all that mattered was that you might - just might   think the Queen was a silly old bitch in a tiara.

So, take all the personal responsibility you can, by all means.  But don't think for one moment that that is going to make bigotted people look past your name or your dress - or the colour of your skin.

Boru

(April 27, 2015 at 6:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: So, take all the personal responsibility you can, by all means.  But don't think for one moment that that is going to make bigotted people look past your name or your dress - or the colour of your skin.

Boru

Right, so is it an excuse or isn't it? "Personal responsibility isn't always enough".

I'll just leave this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st4IHokD4Jc

If it's not an excuse for everything you see in the above vid, then, as sad as your little story was, it's irrelevant to any of the points in this thread.

First, do you even have a point anymore besides some moot point about how people need to take ownership of their bad choices?
 
Secondly, you do realize not all black people in the States are violent criminals (even the ones in the ghettoes) and not all crimes are violent crimes, right? Right?! I feel embarrassed that I have to ask that. 
Most blacks that get locked up here because of U.S.'s war on drugs and for non-violent drug offenses. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_...ican_males

It is really funny how people like to point out black crime numbers to justify stereotypes but few realize crimes like serial killing and mass murder are a white people's problem - Curiously it's not common to arbitrarily arrest white guys like me because of 'potential danger'. Why the double standard? Did anyone ever notice most serial killers and people who go on killing sprees are white males?

(April 27, 2015 at 8:38 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It is really funny how people like to point out black crime numbers to justify stereotypes but few realize crimes like serial killing and mass murder are a white people's problem - Curiously it's not common to arbitrarily arrest white guys like me because of 'potential danger'. Why the double standard? Did anyone ever notice most serial killers and people who go on killing sprees are white males?

I don't know about that. If you do a wikipedia search for worst cities for murder you have to go pretty far down the list til you find a city that's mainly populated by white people.

In places where there's lots and lots of murder you probably wouldn't notice a serial killer, for example in a place like Honduras (murder capital of the world) where lots of gang related murder takes place, you probably wouldn't notice a person of a south american ethnic background killing 3 or more people for psychological pleasure (the definition of a serial killer).

On the other hand two white kids who shoot a school in a relatively murder free place like Colorado is much more noticeable.

I don't know what the argument about arresting people for arbitrary reasons is but I'm just pointing out that it's very doubtful that serial killing and mass murder is a white people's problem. 

I've seen enough racism as practiced by police, government in general, and private corporations that any argument asserting that black folks don't take responsibility because they'd prefer to cry racism seems pretty biased.

Most black folks I know would prefer to not be followed in stores, not be pulled over for driving nice cars, and not have the shit beaten out of them by the cops. The fact that there is an underlying connection, namely their skin color for those too obtuse to notice, should not have to be pointed out -- yet here in 21st-century America, is still needs to be argued, discussed, and won.

I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions. I don't think, however that blacks should have to own the bigotry of the whites who haggle them. Where does that line lie?

Well, that's one hell of a discussion right there, compadre.

(April 27, 2015 at 8:30 pm)Pizza Wrote: First, do you even have a point anymore besides some moot point about how people need to take ownership of their bad choices?

This is all about community attitudes. Not just 'people need to take ownership of bad choices'.

I don't see how it's moot either. There's plenty of evidence to suggest not enough people understand the point, or have even heard of it. Just look at what is happening in Baltimore right now.

Quote:Secondly, you do realize not all black people in the States are violent criminals

I just knew some prick would come along and go down this route and attempt to smear any point I had in such a way. When did I ever in this thread give any indication that I thought this was the case. It's insulting.

Right in the OP, the guy in the very first video I posted, says EXACTLY what you just stated. Not all black people are violent criminals. It's a minority. Of-fucking-course.

Right now it's a struggle to even entertain someone who has such a low opinion of my intellect as to insult it so flagrantly.

Quote:(even the ones in the ghettoes) and not all crimes are violent crimes, right? Right?! I feel embarrassed that I have to ask that. 

Yeah and you fucking should. Such a weak and wasteful route to go down. But hey, I'm just some guy who thinks all black people are evil.

Give me a fucking break dude. You're the idiot here.

Quote:Most blacks that get locked up here because of U.S.'s war on drugs and for non-violent drug offenses. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_...ican_males

Did I say otherwise? What is the relevance of this to anything I've said previously?

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(April 27, 2015 at 10:13 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I agree that people should take responsibility for their actions.  I don't think, however that blacks should have to own the bigotry of the whites who haggle them. Where does that line lie?

Well, that's one hell of a discussion right there, compadre.

And that's the discussion that should be happening. Not debating whether there is racism in the first place, which is what other people seem to be intent on.

The problem still remains that unless conditions change this type of thing will not stop. It isn't about excuse making. If a population is under bad economic conditions, and lives under suspicion and is abused by police constantly, the CONDITIONS will produce these behaviors.

We also know the conditions that lead to a hurricane as well, by addressing those conditions you can improve the standards of dealing with problems.

I really hate it when people equate an explanation to an excuse.