(April 27, 2015 at 8:38 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It is really funny how people like to point out black crime numbers to justify stereotypes but few realize crimes like serial killing and mass murder are a white people's problem - Curiously it's not common to arbitrarily arrest white guys like me because of 'potential danger'. Why the double standard? Did anyone ever notice most serial killers and people who go on killing sprees are white males?

What double standard exactly? The point in this thread remains the same, whether it's white people going out doing wrong or black people. You're the one committing a double standard because you make excuses for one group of people but not others.

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(April 27, 2015 at 10:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I really hate it when people equate an explanation to an excuse.

Not everyone uses it as an excuse, but there are those that do. I've given direction to evidence of such already. 

When some people use it as an excuse, what do you expect in response? For people, like myself, to say "hey, it's not an excuse".

(April 27, 2015 at 9:51 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 8:38 pm)Dystopia Wrote: It is really funny how people like to point out black crime numbers to justify stereotypes but few realize crimes like serial killing and mass murder are a white people's problem - Curiously it's not common to arbitrarily arrest white guys like me because of 'potential danger'. Why the double standard? Did anyone ever notice most serial killers and people who go on killing sprees are white males?

I don't know about that. If you do a wikipedia search for worst cities for murder you have to go pretty far down the list til you find a city that's mainly populated by white people.

I don't know what the argument about arresting people for arbitrary reasons is but I'm just pointing out that it's very doubtful that serial killing and mass murder is a white people's problem. 

To be honest though, people talk about "crime rates are higher among black people" and the statistic is thrown around without any context. We don't actually think about a very important question. Why?

Statistically, black people in America (and the UK) tend to be poorer. In severely deprived neighbourhoods, you're more likely to be led into crime, because you are neglected, and you struggle to escape from it because the system fails you. Crime becomes an attractive (or convenient) way of getting things you want and need.

If you look at it like that, it becomes less of a "black people problem" and more of a "poor people problem". These people are not criminals because they are black, they get led into crime because they are poor and often desperate. If you were to go to a very poor white neighbourhood, you'd find exactly the same thing, crime rates would be much higher than they would be in a middle class white neighbourhood. In fact I witnessed that myself growing up in an area that was predominantly white but still very poor, it was still not a safe area. It had exactly the same gang and drug issues we associate with black neighbourhoods, but the faces were white.

It's an issue of poverty more than race. It gets mis-labelled as a "race issue" because a disproportionate amount of black people are poor relative to white people.

(April 27, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: It's an issue of poverty more than race. It gets mis-labelled as a "race issue" because a disproportionate amount of black people are poor relative to white people.

Ding ding.

Economics.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

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Just to re-iterate, because I feel like much of what my point actually is gets lost with my own ramblings at times:

http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/co...baltimore/

"To all the looters in Baltimore"



The OP of this post sums it up:

"The point is not that the stereotypes or discrimination are justified. But that to the people who already hold these views against various minorities, the looting and rioting only serve to deepen their conviction. The whole "unarmed black man" storyline gets lost when people are assaulting firemen and cutting firehose lines."


I brought up this whole issue because I was reading into the Baltimore thing. Then someone posted the video I posted in the OP of this thread. I thought it was relevant.

At the end of the day, committing crimes, choosing to join gangs, all that bad shit, doesn't do you or your 'people' any favours.

Ofcourse there's injustices. Nobody disputes that, but apparently I do according Pizza. I think every black person is a violent criminal according to him. This is exactly the problem in my view. People get bogged down in the who did what. They want to find blame. They use racism as an excuse. Yes. They fucking do. End of story.

The proposition in the OP, to 'take responsibility' isn't the ultimate solution to the problems that black people as a community face. But it's a damn lot better a way of going about things than rioting in the streets like what is happening right now in Baltimore.

Quote:"The point is not that the stereotypes or discrimination are justified. But that to the people who already hold these views against various minorities, the looting and rioting only serve to deepen their conviction. The whole "unarmed black man" storyline gets lost when people are assaulting firemen and cutting firehose lines."

This

(April 27, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote:

(April 27, 2015 at 9:51 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know about that. If you do a wikipedia search for worst cities for murder you have to go pretty far down the list til you find a city that's mainly populated by white people.

I don't know what the argument about arresting people for arbitrary reasons is but I'm just pointing out that it's very doubtful that serial killing and mass murder is a white people's problem. 

To be honest though, people talk about "crime rates are higher among black people" and the statistic is thrown around without any context. We don't actually think about a very important question. Why?

Statistically, black people in America (and the UK) tend to be poorer. In severely deprived neighbourhoods, you're more likely to be led into crime, because you are neglected, and you struggle to escape from it because the system fails you. Crime becomes an attractive (or convenient) way of getting things you want and need.

If you look at it like that, it becomes less of a "black people problem" and more of a "poor people problem". These people are not criminals because they are black, they get led into crime because they are poor and often desperate. If you were to go to a very poor white neighbourhood, you'd find exactly the same thing, crime rates would be much higher than they would be in a middle class white neighbourhood. In fact I witnessed that myself growing up in an area that was predominantly white but still very poor, it was still not a safe area. It had exactly the same gang and drug issues we associate with black neighbourhoods, but the faces were white.

It's an issue of poverty more than race. It gets mis-labelled as a "race issue" because a disproportionate amount of black people are poor relative to white people.

 

and lots of black ppl are poor, cuz they have a hard time finding a job, cuz RACISM still exists.

I saw a quote that somebody posted on FB today, taken from The Atlantic, that I thought summed up the unfortunate chaos in Baltimore and other cities where racial tensions have flared, quite succinctly:

"When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the rioters themselves."

Scanning through this, Nap, I feel like you're trying to make a false dichotomy. Not every racist situation is going to be the same. Not every minority is going to be suffering from the same problems, and not every white person is going to be acting out of the same motives. Saying "is it an excuse or not?" Why can't it be both? There are so many nuances and factors going into racism and the plight of minorities, you can't begin to untangle why situations like that happen.

Studies have been done about how having ethnic names on applications makes those people less likely to get call backs on jobs. Doesn't matter what the rest of the application says. Send the same application in with a "white" name and those applications get lots more call backs. How far does personal responsibility go there?

(April 28, 2015 at 8:40 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Scanning through this, Nap, I feel like you're trying to make a false dichotomy.

Right.

(April 27, 2015 at 10:36 pm)Napoléon Wrote: The proposition in the OP, to 'take responsibility' isn't the ultimate solution to the problems that black people as a community face.

Think that's all I need to say to that ridiculous accusation.

Quote:Not every racist situation is going to be the same. Not every minority is going to be suffering from the same problems, and not every white person is going to be acting out of the same motives. Saying "is it an excuse or not?" Why can't it be both? There are so many nuances and factors going into racism and the plight of minorities, you can't begin to untangle why situations like that happen.

I don't see how anything I've said previously disputes anything you're saying.

Quote:Studies have been done about how having ethnic names on applications makes those people less likely to get call backs on jobs. Doesn't matter what the rest of the application says. Send the same application in with a "white" name and those applications get lots more call backs. How far does personal responsibility go there?

Again, I never disputed that black/poor people have a harder time getting jobs. In fact I've consistently said exactly that throughout the thread. What is with this notion that I'm somehow ignorant of these facts when I've backed them up time and time again throughout the thread?

This seems to be missing the point. The point the guy in the OP was making.

I'll repeat again, because you seem to have missed it

"The point is not that the stereotypes or discrimination are justified. But that to the people who already hold these views against various minorities, the looting and rioting only serve to deepen their conviction. The whole "unarmed black man" storyline gets lost when people are assaulting firemen and cutting firehose lines."

In other words, it's not that discrimination is justified, even extending that discrimination to how black people find it harder to get jobs. I get it, it's absolutely wrong that we live in a world like this. 100% agree, why do people keep going on like I'm disputing it?

The point however is that joining gangs, committing violence, slinging dope on street corners etc. all those things that are stereotypes of black communities, to the people who have those stereotypes in their head in the first place whenever another young black guy gets into the bad stuff, it just solidifies the prejudices that already exist.

Now ofcourse not everyone is going to just be able to go "oh, personal responsibility, I shouldn't do that", ofcourse it's a lot more complicated.

But we're talking about community attitudes as a whole here. Specifically, attitudes in the 'black community'. And I honestly don't see enough people in the black community taking responsibility. Speaking out like the guys in the two vids I posted.

Maybe I don't have the best perception. I live thousands of miles away in the UK let's not forget, but I'm going off of what I repeatedly see in the media, what I repeatedly see when Americans talk about 'black communities'. I keep banging on about it but Ross Kemp in Memphis just sums up precisely some of the issues in black communities, and it's less about racism than community attitudes being so poor. Ofcourse that isn't to say there isn't racism! Or that there aren't problems people should be outraged by. But committing more violence, gang culture, drugs, things that people in these communities seem at the least apathetic about, surely that's not helping anyone right?

---

Another video of a black dude who's got it spot fucking on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmpkLI-z...e=youtu.be

Quote:I completely disagree with this. What you're talking about is not racism. Not my understanding of it anyway. You're applying a lot more baggage and using it as a blanket term for systematic oppression. That's just not what it is. Systematic oppression is systematic oppression. Racism isn't automatically systematic oppression. Systematic oppression could be caused by deep rooted racism, but they aren't one and the same.

False dichotomy - While systematic oppression can work from many angles including prejudices, economics, politics, military, etc, nothing stops it from being lumped with racism to make a more serious mix. I am arguing that it's both and racism is way worse when the racist group has power.

Quote:Is this racism though? Or economics?

Everything is tied to economics but that doesn't mean anything must be solely about economics. Yes, power and money are important but that doesn't invalidate the fact race is relevant in issue I already mentioned. 

Quote:This is insane. It's essentially saying, it's ok for black people to be racist because it doesn't impact anyone. Which is pure fucking bullshit.

Actually no, it's not ok and racism sucks anyway, but a group with little power simply can't impact society significantly. Just imagine black salves being racist towards whites - Would that do anything? No. In my country gipsies are the equivalent of blacks in America and they are racist towards native whites, but that's not relevant because they have no way to socially enforce their prejudices while we can deny them jobs, social support, decent schools, education, insult their culture and marginalize them, etc.

The main thing here is to laugh at whites complaining about "reverse-racism" as if they were a heavily discriminated group in society. Even with affirmative action, we still have the upper hand.

Quote:I'm not sure what you're even getting at here. I suggest you go back and watch the video again because it seems to be you really didn't understand it. The guy himself said, racism still exists. I understand what racism is. I know what it isn't. I know what institutionalized racism is. I know what it isn't.

I was just introducing something to not confuse people. 

Quote:I think you've imagined up something here. He wasn't saying it was easy at all. But the fact that so many don't even try is the fucking problem.

Ofcourse it's not just as simple as rejecting the thug life. Ofcourse it's not just as simple as working hard and digging yourself out of a hole. OFCOURSE.

You would think this goes without saying?

Ok, how do you define try? Do you have statistics of how many have tried and failed/succeeded? Do you have numbers to back this up? And what is considered a legitimate try? Is someone without even a decent school to go considered a decent attempt at success? What about someone who is raised by criminal parents to think the thug life is the only life? What is, in your opinion, a decent "opportunity" that enables someone to get out of the lake of fire? How many doors need to be opened?

I would like to see whites in the same scenario to see how many don't even "try".

Quote:What the guy in the video is saying, isn't that it's easy, rather that it's possible. And many in black communities don't do themselves any favours by not trying. Like he said, instead of blaming the cops for pulling you over because "you're black", blame the black people who came before you who gave them the excuse to be that prejudiced. Stop blaming others and do what you can to get out of the situation or make your neighbourhood a better place to live. Can you honestly say the vast majority of black people in America do that? Doesn't look that way to me. Yes there's issues that need to be addressed, yes institutionalized racism shouldn't happen, but as of right now I honestly don't see the black community in general doing anything constructive to aid their problems.

Define possible. What situations warrant a possibility of climbing the social ladder?

So, you are arguing for individual responsibility and trying to succeed and get out of The life, but now you're saying blacks are responsible by what other blacks do? WTF? That's a massive contradiction. The majority of rapists in my country are white, should I be arrested randomly under the excuse that I may be a rapist?

What are you basing yourself in to say that blacks (the majority) aren't doing enough? And do you think they can do this while the rest of society doesn't give a crap and allows institutionalized racism to exist in things like jobs, education and housing? Fuck, it's like shooting someone in the foot and then telling them to walk 100KM straight.

I have some news for you - you mentioned that it's hard and some people manage to do it. I agree with that - But guess what, successful minorities, the ones that make it, are exceptions, and that's it. The majority of Humans can do little more than their own job, procreation, raise kids, watch the football match and grow old. Most of us will not be powerful like Churchill or great athletes like Ronaldo or Lebron James... Some blacks manage to do it but and shine in fields like medicine, law, politics, economics, science (Neil Degrasse Tyson comes to mind) - But those blacks don't undermine the general rule, they're exceptions. Barack Obama is a president in a country where police violence against blacks + mass incarceration is normal, and he's black. Margaret was elected in a society that hadn't seen a female high level politician in a while (or forever?). Those exceptions don't erase the general rule.

Quote:I'm not buying it. It's bullshit. All I see is excuse, excuse, excuse. So many say "there's no opportunity", so many say there's no jobs or they can't get one because they're black. It's fucking bullshit frankly. Might not be popular but it's the truth.

Racism isn't what is causing people to gain a criminal record by the age of 12. Racism isn't what's causing the police bias of black people. Racism is a symptom not a cause.

You are inventing stuff just to win the argument now - Nowhere did I say that people shouldn't be held responsible for committing crimes. A black should be held accountable as much as any other similar criminal, not get a higher sentence for the same crime (yeah, if they didn't commit the crime they wouldn't go to jail, but we don't live in this magical society where people don't do shit so it's naive to think about it). You see, criminal law punishes and tries to rehabilitate people, but there's also a preventive side in fighting crime - It's not only about being though and putting people in jail for a lot of time or executing them, you need specialists to analyse what causes higher or lower crime and apply useful economic and social measures. Why do you think blacks commit certain crimes more often and so disproportionally? Unless someone thinks it's because of their skin colour, I would argue there's a cause. That's what I'm saying here - Not excuses, but finding causes.  You need to know the cause - Why does one group murder more, or steal more, or rape more? It isn't by coincidence I think. Ignoring this and saying it's up to blacks to fix it is shitting on their faces and ignoring them thereafter.

I'll make an analogy with Brazil - As you know, Brazil has a super high murder rate and just looking at Rio will show you why - Massive segregation between the very rich and very poor. Prisons are overcrowded, kids are raised inside the favelas with guns and RPG's, they don't go to school and starve. Obviously this isn't because Brazilians don't want to get out of the hole, it's because the hole is too deep (and prisons are overcrowded so jailing people isn't fixing the issue) and the rehab index is low. There are Brazilians who genuinely think it's the criminal's fault, but obviously someone with half-brain will realize there's many things keeping criminality alive.

When there are 12 year old kids with records, something is definitely wrong with the system and education indexes
 

Quote:But even regardless. This isn't about racism. This is economics. I really urge you to watch Ross Kemp in Memphis. Does a lot better of a job explaining it. That people use racism, or prejudice as an excuse for not getting a job and standing on street corners selling dope is the problem. It's not the 'system' keeping people down. It's themselves. Okay, the system is the way it is and it's the reason they are in the mess in the first place, sure, that can be fixed and it should be fixed. But poor people have always existed. Is it an excuse to go out committing crimes? To turn your neighbourhood into a slum? To have the highest murder rates? To have gang violence? No.

Not an excuse, people should be punished for whatever crime they commit, but ignoring variables that affect it is naive. No one decides to become a criminal just because it's cool or fashionable, there are many rational reasons like money, social pressure and fitting into a group, sometimes pleasure/adrenaline, education, etc. Is there any reason why I should watch this documentary?

I don't doubt people use it as an excuse - Just like most people on welfare are really poor and there are some bastards committing fraud, you will find people using excuses for all kinds of shit. I'm sure some use it to not search for a job and sell drugs. But that exists in every social group, it doesn't erase the fact systemic discrimination and marginalization is a problem.

Again, not excuses... Causes. Also, being poor as white is way different than being poor as black. Every racial and social group has different experiences. I still see no reason to create a false dichotomy between economics and race. It can be about both, and it is. 

Do you know how many blacks are incarcerated for minor crimes like possessing marijuana and because of things like the war on drugs? Those people aren't violent in my eyes, but having a criminal record will probably screw their lives 

Quote:I've seen some black people moan about getting pulled over all the time. Maybe if they had the following guys attitude eventually they wouldn't have the issue:

A
Again, any reason to watch the video? Anyone can be pulled over and you should act with politeness as you would do with any other person. But that doesn't mean I would tolerate a cop disrespecting me. If a cop did here in Portugal what they do in America there would be outraged and he would go to jail (in fact something similar happened some months ago - Cop murdered a 14 year old by "accident", he's in jail now)

Quote:Again, excuses. I'd just be going over what I've already said here. Slavery was a looong time ago. Civil rights have been won. When they're born in the ghetto, it's not about slavery. It's not about racism. It's about economics.

It's about all three of them.

Slavery because it gave you the weak head-start in the first place. It is a cause whether you like it or not.

Racism because if makes it difficult to find a job, more likely to be punished by school teachers, be seen as a criminal, etc.

Economics because ... Those who control the means of production control everything

Quote:Nothing you've mentioned excuses bad behaviour or a lack of desire to make your community better. Yet so many in the black community display these two things, and then bitch about inequality afterwards. There's your fucking problem. People need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Can you provide numbers on these "so many" blacks that don't do shit for their community?

Quote:That comic is so incredibly stupid I don't even want to comment on it.

Saying it is stupid doesn't work as a valid argument

Quote:Yet again making excuses for criminality.

Ok, let's wait and look at blacks to see how much they will get out of the hole in their own. Again, not excuses - Causes and very legitimate studied ones

Quote:I really get the sense reading more and more from you that there isn't even going to be an understanding here. I just plain think you are viewing this shit through rose tinted glasses and won't understand the situation because of it. This is the problem for me. Far too many point their finger at 'the man' and use it as an excuse to do wrong. Literally right above me you've just used a ludicrous comic attributing racism and inequality blindly to 'the white man' and use it to blame the all the woes of black people on slavery. It's honestly just ridiculous.

It doesn't blame everything, it just shows how whites shit on blacks after abolishing slavery and not allowing blacks to grow economically, intellectually, culturally and socially for hundreds of years (or decades? In the US it was less time)

Quote:None of this has to do with black people in black communities making their own lives shitter instead of better.

How do you define someone making their life shitter?

Quote:Quite honestly I think I understand the issue, and at the risk of sounding rude, I think you're the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm not a specialist on sociology, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to criminality because it's what I'm getting my masters degree on. And I'm positive I'm right because causes for crime and delinquency are very resembling all around the world, whether it's America, Spain, the UK or Russia, etc.

Quote:Ofcourse there's inequality that still persists in America, ofcourse some cops are racist assholes and commit injustices everyday. It may well be that the 'black man' finds it harder to get a job. But the answer to these problems isn't to blame everyone else in society and use it as an excuse to commit crimes or get into gangs. People like you, and I seriously mean no disrespect when I use that term, are enablers for people in the black community who do want to use these things as excuses. I wish people would just stop with the blame, with the excuses, and instead focus on doing what they can to make the situation better for themselves.

Not excuses, causes, and reasons to protest. I think rioting is bad and shouldn't be done. But I also think black activists should work to solve these issues because it would allow for a better headstart and competition. I'm not making excuses for any crime at all, I'm simply saying that we shouldn't look at it as if it was a choice and people didn't even try. Try to contemplate for a second that there are people in the world that are not like you, were raised differently and went trough different shit in their lives.

Quote:The main thing here is to laugh at whites complaining about "reverse-racism" as if they were a heavily discriminated group in society. Even with affirmative action, we still have the upper hand.

This attitude is what causes support for racist white groups flourish in my experience.

I don't call it reverse racism I just call it racism though.

I know in my area what used to happen (and might still happen now but not as much) is that white people would continually be attacked by pakistani groups constantly, I've been on public transport and seen white people get kicked in the face for no reason, every month in the newspaper there would be another picture of an old mans face brutally beaten because he walked into a pakistani area and I know at least one white person was killed walking through an area not far from me.

None of this racism was ever taken seriously because it was against white people, so eventually white racist groups got the support they wanted from white people who were being laughed at by people who had the attitude that the the racism they were facing wasn't significant enough because they were white.

I pretty much agree with what summerqueen says when she says its a complex issue with many nuances, but I think it's stupid to basically say "Hey don't generalize about black people, white people always have the upperhand and have you ever noticed they're always spree killing and most serial killers are white?"