@Dystopia, not going to respond mate. Quite honestly, reading through, there's just too many things you've misinterpreted or are flat out making out like I've said when I haven't. For instance: "Slavery because it gave you the weak head-start in the first place. It is a cause whether you like it or not."

When did I ever say slavery wasn't a cause for the current economic situation that black people find themselves in?

I honestly can't be arsed to go through each point with someone who so willingly wants to misinterpret my points in such an intellectually dishonest way. It's actually really annoying.

I have a few things to say and then I'm out, if no one has anything informative to actually add.
"Again, excuses. I'd just be going over what I've already said here. Slavery was a looong time ago."
It has not been that long here in the U.S.; in fact, if you add the successful white terrorist during reconstruction era, Jim Crow laws("segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States"), and sharecropping an update version of slavery had been alive and kicking in America up until 1960s or 70s. So, the aftermath of that long period of oppression isn't going away magically. We're still trying to pick up the pieces in this country.

"Civil rights have been won."
Some battles have been won. This doesn't mean racism is over.
"When they're born in the ghetto, it's not about slavery. It's not about racism. It's about economics." Where do you think the ghettos in America came from? The sky? Doubling down on this point is absurd when you know nothing of American racial history. Just concede the point. We've already conceded people need to take ownership of their bad choices. Why can't you concede a point?

(April 28, 2015 at 8:40 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Scanning through this, Nap, I feel like you're trying to make a false dichotomy. Not every racist situation is going to be the same. Not every minority is going to be suffering from the same problems, and not every white person is going to be acting out of the same motives. Saying "is it an excuse or not?" Why can't it be both? There are so many nuances and factors going into racism and the plight of minorities, you can't begin to untangle why situations like that happen.

Studies have been done about how having ethnic names on applications makes those people less likely to get call backs on jobs. Doesn't matter what the rest of the application says. Send the same application in with a "white" name and those applications get lots more call backs. How far does personal responsibility go there?

It IS both. There ARE plenty of bigots out there - more than I would have thought. We all saw them show their ugly asses when Obama was elected - like roaches scurrying out from under the refrigerator when the light is switched off. But the black community continues to provide those human roaches with ammunition by living up to their stereotype.

I admit that black people still get a raw deal compared to others. It's unfair and it sucks. Other groups have faced prejudices and persecutions too, however. Asians weren't exactly welcomed here with opened arms but they worked hard, got ahead and earned respect. Blacks have wallowed in self-pity and lashed out in violence - often against their own. They have built an entire culture based around bad behavior and ignorance. In both cases, I'm speaking of a community as a whole, of course - not individuals.

African Americans need to do better. One of the biggest things they need to do IMHO is to embrace those of their own who succeed rather than treating them as outcasts. Similarly, they need to disown those who are career thugs. Barack and Michelle Obama should be seen as the heroes of the black community. Colon Powell, Condolezza Rice and our favorite, Neil Degrasse Tyson. Not fucking rappers. I would bet that this is the root of the frustration of the guy who made the video. His fellow blacks are backing the wrong people and because he is black, people assume he is the same by default. There other blacks who have taken this same position including Reginald Finley - The Infidel Guy. There are also the guys who made this.

 
I served in the U.S. Air Force from 1985 - 1995. I saw no difference in how different races were treated there and I saw many black people flourish. That's not for everybody but there are other venues too. They could become cops and try to change the system from the inside. Those able and so-inclined could go into academia where prejudice is almost non-existent. The bottom line is that there ARE avenues available.

Regarding the "slavery was a long time ago" argument that people love throwing around so much...

Yes, it was a long time ago. However, there are a good number of people in America today who would happily see it come back. While people like that exist, and hold power, slavery isn't something we need to forget about in a hurry.

There are also still segregationalists, and lots of racial tension. I think you have to be pretty ignorant to think America is a post-racial society.

The UK is not a post-racial society, even though there's good argument to suggest we're quite ahead of America on race-relations (not perfect by any means, but better).

Sometimes I hear Americans discussing race, and I can't believe some of the opinions I hear. I can't believe there are actually adults who think some of this stuff. It's like listening to a group of children in the school classroom sometimes.

Dystopia Wrote:So, you are arguing for individual responsibility and trying to succeed and get out of The life, but now you're saying blacks are responsible by what other blacks do?

The way I'm reading it, he is not arguing that blacks are responsible for what other blacks do, but rather, some blacks are responsible for their own behaviors that play into the hands of bigots by exemplifying stereotypes. And the fact is that bigots then pick up on those past behaviors to justify perpetuating stereotypes into the future.

Racism exists. In America it is most often expressed as white-on-black racism, which results in blacks having higher poverty rates, lower educational levels, higher arrest and conviction rates, and a host of other disparaties. None of that justifies the violence and destruction going on in Baltimore, which harms blacks as well as whites.

Racism is not an excuse to destroy the property of innocent folks. Using it as such an excuse only harms the cause of equality.

It's not all down to black people taking responsibility. Racism is still a thing

Objectively though, if there's one area I think they (well, some of them, it's not all) can improve on, it's to stop saying that caring about education and speaking in standard English is "acting white". That's very damaging. It's not only defeatist, it is internalised racism.

And also not all white people finish school and speak in clear, standard English, so I fail to see how those things are "acting white".

(April 28, 2015 at 11:49 am)Yeauxleaux Wrote:

---

Regarding the "slavery was a long time ago" argument that people love throwing around so much...

Yes, it was a long time ago. However, there are a good number of people in America today who would happily see it come back. While people like that exist, and hold power, slavery isn't something we need to forget about in a hurry.

There are also still segregationalists, and lots of racial tension. I think you have to be pretty ignorant to think America is a post-racial society.

The UK is not a post-racial society, even though there's good argument to suggest we're quite ahead of America on race-relations (not perfect by any means, but better).

Sometimes I hear Americans discussing race, and I can't believe some of the opinions I hear. I can't believe there are actually adults who think some of this stuff. It's like listening to a group of children in the school classroom sometimes.

---

Speaking of which, there is a large part of the Southern States that idealizes the Confederacy and down plays slavery. http://www.wcbi.com/local-news/confedera...reactions/

Quote:MONTGOMERY — One hundred and fifty years after the Civil War’s end, several Southern states will mark Confederate Memorial Day as an official state holiday.

Quote:“We’re celebrating the lives of our ancestors,” said Gary Carlyle, Alabama Commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Carlyle, who prefers to call it the War for Southern Independence, said the war was started by an invasion.

Quote:Alabama State University, a historically black university in Montgomery, will host a symposium on Confederate Memorial Day.

Dr. Derryn Moten, acting chair of the Department of History and Political Science, said many people likely find the idea of a day dedicated to Confederate dead quaint or strange.

“I think more people question the ethicacy of giving it or having it as an official state holiday,” Moten said.

Moten said he wants the conference to debunk some of the myths, including that the Confederacy was not interested in the perpetuation of slavery.

The Constitution of the Confederate states discussed slavery multiple times, including that there would be no law impairing the right to own in “negro slaves.”

People are still going on about whether racism is a thing or not?

When was it ever in dispute?

(April 28, 2015 at 11:44 am)Pizza Wrote: I have a few things to say and then I'm out, if no one has anything informative to actually add.

Because you've been providing all the intelligent insight here? Give me a break.

Quote:"Again, excuses. I'd just be going over what I've already said here. Slavery was a looong time ago."
It has not been that long here in the U.S.; in fact, if you add the successful white terrorist during reconstruction era, Jim Crow laws("segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States"), and sharecropping an update version of slavery had been alive and kicking in America up until 1960s or 70s. So, the aftermath of that long period of oppression isn't going away magically. We're still trying to pick up the pieces in this country.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. But how is it relevant to any of the points I've brought up in the thread? I'm still yet to see a clear explanation on that. Except for using it as an excuse for bad behaviour, or the way things are.

Do carry on with these insightful comments that are completely besides the point.

Quote:"Civil rights have been won."
Some battles have been won. This doesn't mean racism is over.

Did I say racism was over? Did you watch the video in the fucking OP? How many times do I need to make it clear, I'm not debating whether racism is an issue.

Read what I'm saying instead of having your own argument.

Quote:"When they're born in the ghetto, it's not about slavery. It's not about racism. It's about economics." Where do you think the ghettos in America came from? The sky? Doubling down on this point is absurd when you know nothing of American racial history. Just concede the point. We've already conceded people need to take ownership of their bad choices. Why can't you concede a point?

What are you even talking about? You must be reading a completely different discussion to me, at least put that quote in context. Your contentions have been addressed multiple times in this thread but you seem to have blinders on. I've said, and the videos I've posted have all said, it's not about racism. Yes racism is the cause for many problems. I've already 'conceded' that, even though I never fucking argued against it in the first place. What I'm saying is it's not an excuse for bad behaviour. You say you've conceded that, I must have missed it. Seems like you just want to argue over nothing.

(April 28, 2015 at 12:05 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: It's not all down to black people taking responsibility. Racism is still a thing

Again, nobody said otherwise. Where are you people getting this shit from?

Quote:Objectively though, if there's one area I think they (well, some of them, it's not all) can improve on, it's to stop saying that caring about education and speaking in standard English is "acting white". That's very damaging. It's not only defeatist, it is internalised racism.

Oh, a point that essentially backs up everything I've said throughout the damn thread.

Attitudes.

This is what I've been talking about. "Fuck the police". "Don't snitch". "Acting white". It's the communities of black people that perpetuate these attitudes.

There's no justification for it. I understand why these attitudes exist, even though certain people want to tell me I know nothing of American racial history, which is flat out insulting and disingenuous. But the point is, perpetuating the stereo-types doesn't aid the cause.

(April 28, 2015 at 11:49 am)AFTT47 Wrote: They have built an entire culture based around bad behavior and ignorance. In both cases, I'm speaking of a community as a whole, of course - not individuals.

African Americans need to do better. One of the biggest things they need to do IMHO is to embrace those of their own who succeed rather than treating them as outcasts.

A-fucking-men.

So you started a topic with a title that says blacks should stop complaining about racism, yet you acknowledged that racism and institutional racism/discrimination still exists and it is either a cause of drawbacks/difficulties or was in the past and the secondary effects are still felt today... And you are saying that blacks should handle racism and not protest against it? How does this work? If someone shot you in the foot would you run 10Km or would you ask for medical support before doing it?

Quote:I honestly can't be arsed to go through each point with someone who so willingly wants to misinterpret my points in such an intellectually dishonest way. It's actually really annoying.

Oh shit, you invented things I didn't even say and now I'm the one misinterpreting it? Suit yourself, I won't take it personally

(April 28, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Dystopia Wrote: So you started a topic with a title that says blacks should stop complaining about racism, yet you acknowledged that racism and institutional racism/discrimination still exists and it is either a cause of drawbacks/difficulties or was in the past and the secondary effects are still felt today... And you are saying that blacks should handle racism and not protest against it?

Of course not. They SHOULD protest against it long and LOUD. At the same time, they shouldn't use discrimination as an excuse. They should do what they can in the face of adversity just as Asian-Americans did.
I understand that the average black folk can no more be Barack or Michelle Obama than the average white folk can be Bill or Hilary Clinton. That's an unreasonably high bar to hold people to. Not all people of any race have that level of level of intelligence and drive to call upon. All people should have a base-level of standards though and the black community in the U.S. really need to upgrade their's.

Demand more.