sadism only applies to humans. god is no man, so if he would exist, it's normal for him to do whatever the fuck he does

(May 22, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 22, 2015 at 1:23 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Surely an omnipotent god who is alleged to be good could alleviate suffering and do away with evil.

Our perspective is much different depending on whether or not we believe in eternal life.  If life is eternal, then life here is not even a blip on the radar screen.  If you believe that this life on earth is all we have, then I can be more understanding of you opinion of God.  God obviously wanted the possibility of evil to exist since he gave us a free will and created the "tempter".   He also wanted there to be suffering here because he created killer storms and diseases and so on.  I look at suffering as probably what we go through to form us into the type of people we are to be throughout eternity.  I don't know that this is true, but it's possible that those who suffer more here will will enjoy eternity more.  If you want to be a US Marine, you must go through rigorous training and pass numerous tests, as you are formed into what it takes to be a marine.  This is true of other things that we strive for.  God is forming us to be the people we will be for eternity.  I don't view suffering itself as evil, nor do I consider God as evil because he causes us to live in an environment in which we suffer.  As I pointed out earlier, we purposely bring children into this world knowing that they will suffer.  We could use birth control, and still have our sexual pleasure, without purposely bringing poor little children into this world of suffering, but we know that there are a lot of worthwhile and enjoyable experiences here and good reasons to be living here.  God also gave us the power and the freedom of choice to make the world a better place.  If we truly loved our neighbors as Jesus told us to do, we could alleviate hunger and much disease and suffering, but too many of us don't love our neighbors.  That's the way God made it to be.  I don't worry about why he made it this way.  I'm just confidently living my life under his guidance, knowing that this is just a blip on the screen.

You DO realize that that argument has been refuted what seems like millions of times over, right? Why do you guys insist on using that argument? 

If God is all knowing, then he wouldn't need to test his followers, because he'd already know the outcome. He'd know if they'd betray him from the start. He might as well use his psychic powers to see into the future, and kill those who will end up betraying him before they are old enough to make their choice... Oh, wait, that's one of the many reasons why I hate the character in the first place. The more humane thing to do is not allow them to be conceived, and why prepare them, when he's all powerful, he can do whatever he wants with the flick of the wrist, and make them already prepared without having to subject them to torture? Can you see why religion makes no sense?

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(May 23, 2015 at 9:49 am)Sappho Wrote: sadism only applies to humans. god is no man, so if he would exist, it's normal for him to do whatever the fuck he does

But wait... God takes pleasure in punishing the sexually immoral. He sounds like a sadist to me. 
Wait, what did that sign just say?

(May 23, 2015 at 10:57 am)IanHulett Wrote: You DO realize that that argument has been refuted what seems like millions of times over, right? Why do you guys insist on using that argument? 

If God is all knowing, then he wouldn't need to test his followers, because he'd already know the outcome. He'd know if they'd betray him from the start. He might as well use his psychic powers to see into the future, and kill those who will end up betraying him before they are old enough to make their choice... Oh, wait, that's one of the many reasons why I hate the character in the first place. The more humane thing to do is not allow them to be conceived, and why prepare them, when he's all powerful, he can do whatever he wants with the flick of the wrist, and make them already prepared without having to subject them to torture? Can you see why religion makes no sense?

I guess I make that argument because it's true. Some christians believe that God doesn't know what choices we will make. The logic is that God knows everything, but what we will do in the future is not something that exists yet. I'm more of the mind that God sees events outside of time and already knows the beginning and the end. But the fact that he knows what choices we will make doesn't alleviate the fact that we are the ones who make them. As far as your reasoning goes, why even bother creating a physical universe in the first place? If he wants people to be with him, he can just create a bunch of us already with him and skip the whole earth thing. I guess that this is the way he wanted to do it. If we're discussing the God of the bible, then we are to assume that he is smarter than we are and knows what is the best way to do things.

In other words, we must simply take whatever beatings he gives us and ask no questions because he must know best.

Does this sound familiar?

(May 23, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 23, 2015 at 10:57 am)IanHulett Wrote: You DO realize that that argument has been refuted what seems like millions of times over, right? Why do you guys insist on using that argument? 

If God is all knowing, then he wouldn't need to test his followers, because he'd already know the outcome. He'd know if they'd betray him from the start. He might as well use his psychic powers to see into the future, and kill those who will end up betraying him before they are old enough to make their choice... Oh, wait, that's one of the many reasons why I hate the character in the first place. The more humane thing to do is not allow them to be conceived, and why prepare them, when he's all powerful, he can do whatever he wants with the flick of the wrist, and make them already prepared without having to subject them to torture? Can you see why religion makes no sense?

I guess I make that argument because it's true.  Some christians believe that God doesn't know what choices we will make.  The logic is that God knows everything, but what we will do in the future is not something that exists yet.  I'm more of the mind that God sees events outside of time and already knows the beginning and the end.  But the fact that he knows what choices we will make doesn't alleviate the fact that we are the ones who make them.  As far as your reasoning goes, why even bother creating a physical universe in the first place?  If he wants people to be with him, he can just create a bunch of us already with him and skip the whole earth thing.  I guess that this is the way he wanted to do it.  If we're discussing the God of the bible, then we are to assume that he is smarter than we are and knows what is the best way to do things.

And thus the problem.  God is stated as being smarter than us, but his own stories in his own book contradict that.

"No, no, I'm really smart, and all this waste and inefficiency is for a very good reason that you'll only learn of when you die" is crap rationale.  A reasonable person will base whether something is worthy of belief, let alone worship, on the facts surrounding that figure.  You're working backwards.  You believe and worship first, then go through contortions to justify something that makes no sense, inevitably ending on "I'll go with what the book says in passing rather than how it actually describes god's actions".  It's utterly irrational, and, IMO, that irrationality isn't something to be proud of like theists generally are.

(May 23, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote:

(May 23, 2015 at 10:57 am)IanHulett Wrote: You DO realize that that argument has been refuted what seems like millions of times over, right? Why do you guys insist on using that argument? 

If God is all knowing, then he wouldn't need to test his followers, because he'd already know the outcome. He'd know if they'd betray him from the start. He might as well use his psychic powers to see into the future, and kill those who will end up betraying him before they are old enough to make their choice... Oh, wait, that's one of the many reasons why I hate the character in the first place. The more humane thing to do is not allow them to be conceived, and why prepare them, when he's all powerful, he can do whatever he wants with the flick of the wrist, and make them already prepared without having to subject them to torture? Can you see why religion makes no sense?

I guess I make that argument because it's true.  Some christians believe that God doesn't know what choices we will make.  The logic is that God knows everything, but what we will do in the future is not something that exists yet.  I'm more of the mind that God sees events outside of time and already knows the beginning and the end.  But the fact that he knows what choices we will make doesn't alleviate the fact that we are the ones who make them.  As far as your reasoning goes, why even bother creating a physical universe in the first place?  If he wants people to be with him, he can just create a bunch of us already with him and skip the whole earth thing.  I guess that this is the way he wanted to do it.  If we're discussing the God of the bible, then we are to assume that he is smarter than we are and knows what is the best way to do things.

Heh. Right.

I refuted this entire statement already. By refuting this, you're only going to repeat this comment a third time using different words, and the cycle will never end.


There you go. Finally! I'm getting through to you. This is one of the many questions I have that has never been answered without raising more questions. Looks like religion is starting to make less sense to you. Yay!!!

Oh. I thought you were starting to see my side of things. Apparently not.

That's very dangerous dude. That's a sure fire way to get conned. Believe what you're told and never question things.  Lose your money first, ask questions later. You avoid contradicting evidence and only look for stuff to confirm your beliefs. You don't want to question your beliefs, fine. But I'm past that. I've decided that it's best that I look for evidence to verify what I'm told, rather than not question things, believe any thing I'm told, even if it makes no sense, and get conned out of money I don't have. You want to be that way, fine. But don't tell others that we need to "assume that he is smarter than we are and knows what is the best way to do things."

(May 23, 2015 at 1:31 pm)robvalue Wrote: In other words, we must simply take whatever beatings he gives us and ask no questions because he must know best.

Does this sound familiar?

It should sound familiar because the Bible says that God beats the ones he loves.  The more often and severe a person is beaten the more God loves him.  Remember Jesus.

Indeed. He loves you so much he promises to torture you for non-compliance.

It's a good point. How intelligent is God? If the bible is anything to go by, he's as intelligent as the people writing it. There's nothing in there to demonstrate anything beyond this, except wild claims which anyone can make. I know everything! See?

And as usual it's unfalsifiable. I could claim to know everything, but you can't prove I don't because I can just refuse to answer questions. God could be right in front of me and he can't prove that he is omnipotent or omniscient, so I don't know why I'd take the word of people who have learnt nothing by being in his literal presence.

(May 24, 2015 at 3:51 am)robvalue Wrote: Indeed. He loves you so much he promises to torture you for non-compliance.

It's a good point. How intelligent is God? If the bible is anything to go by, he's as intelligent as the people writing it. There's nothing in there to demonstrate anything beyond this, except wild claims which anyone can make. I know everything! See?

And as usual it's unfalsifiable. I could claim to know everything, but you can't prove I don't because I can just refuse to answer questions. God could be right in front of me and he can't prove that he is omnipotent or omniscient, so I don't know why I'd take the word of people who have learnt nothing by being in his literal presence.

One of the major problems with the God character is that you are expected to believe in the Jewish version or else the Arabian version.  Neither one of their gods is worth a damn.  

They are both as plum-duff stupid, psychopathic and petty as each other. I'll take option C, which is high in carbs.