(May 26, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 26, 2015 at 1:06 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: No one but an idiot believes everyone is actually equal.  You know that some people are better at mathematics than others, some are better at baseball than others, etc.  If you are unaware of these facts, you must be brain dead.

The social equality that is desirable is as Chad32 describes it.  People should have equality of opportunity, and people's needs should be equally regarded by society.

So like Chad, you're just basically faking egalitarianism.  You don't really believe people, races, genders, and sexual orientations are all equivalent do you?

How about you get your head out of your ass, and stop using a broad brush to paint an entire group as non-egalitarian, you judgmental dumbass.

(May 26, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Heywood Wrote: For an theist egalitarianism is an easy concept to accept.  People should be treated the same because God created them as equals.  However if there is no God then there really isn't any rational reason to actually believe that all the different races, genders, or sexual orientations are actually equivalent.  There might be rational reasons to pretend the are equivalent....social harmony and such...but is there rational reason to believe they are actually equivalent?  It is simply too much of a stretch to think that nature, as a matter of happenstance, made all these things equivalent.

Difficult to know where to start.  So many things wrong in this one paragraph.  Why do I always see these ridiculous threads that I'd love to take my time replying to just before I go to work?  I'll try and reply quickly.

1)It depends which god you believe in, if the god you believe in commands you to kill the infidels/prostitutes/witches/homosexuals and so on then egalitarianism isn't an easy concept to accept.

2) I don't know what you mean by treated equally, and being created as equals, what is the quantifiable measurement at which everyone is equal?

3) I think you're either joking or I've misunderstood you, but you seem to be saying that equality of different sexual orientations is an easy concept to accept if you believe in god, despite the fact we live in a world where homosexuals are murdered by theists because their god commands them to do it.

(May 26, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: So, if you didn’t believe in a god,  you would start treating people with different races, genders, and  different sexual orientations with unfairness?

And we weren’t ‘created’ equal. Should all genders, races, sexual orientations, etc. get treated equally under the law? Yes.

But, please explain how everyone is equal. There are many people that are born with a mental handicap and will never be able to be a scientist. There are many people that are born, that will never be able to walk. They won’t be able to compete in a World’s Strongest Man Competition or be able to run a marathon. We weren’t ‘created’ equal.

And if the idea of an invisible man that is watching your every action is the only thing that prevents you from treating people of different ethnicities or genders differently, then you are an immoral person.

I don't hold an egalitarian position.  For instance I see no reason why men in general can't be better leaders than women or women in general can't be better leaders than men.

(May 26, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 26, 2015 at 1:06 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: No one but an idiot believes everyone is actually equal.  You know that some people are better at mathematics than others, some are better at baseball than others, etc.  If you are unaware of these facts, you must be brain dead.

The social equality that is desirable is as Chad32 describes it.  People should have equality of opportunity, and people's needs should be equally regarded by society.

So like Chad, you're just basically faking egalitarianism.

No, it is not fake. The kind of equality that is believable is good. There should not be pretend quality of opportunity, or just pretending that everyone's needs should be equally regarded by society. Everyone should have a chance to live a decent life. There should be nothing fake or pretend about this.

(May 26, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Heywood Wrote:  You don't really believe people, races, genders, and sexual orientations are all equivalent do you?

They should be given equal opportunity, and equal protection by law. Their needs should all be equally considered by society. So in those senses, yes, I think the are all equal or equivalent.



Are you seriously telling us that you believe that every person is equally good at mathematics? That every person is equally good at baseball?

Stop playing word games.

(May 26, 2015 at 1:23 pm)Heywood Wrote:

(May 26, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: So, if you didn’t believe in a god,  you would start treating people with different races, genders, and  different sexual orientations with unfairness?

And we weren’t ‘created’ equal. Should all genders, races, sexual orientations, etc. get treated equally under the law? Yes.

But, please explain how everyone is equal. There are many people that are born with a mental handicap and will never be able to be a scientist. There are many people that are born, that will never be able to walk. They won’t be able to compete in a World’s Strongest Man Competition or be able to run a marathon. We weren’t ‘created’ equal.

And if the idea of an invisible man that is watching your every action is the only thing that prevents you from treating people of different ethnicities or genders differently, then you are an immoral person.

I don't hold an egalitarian position.  For instance I see no reason why men in general can't be better leaders than women or women in general can't be better leaders than men.

People who think that people of different genders, ethnicities, and sexual orientations should be treated equally and have equal opportunities is what an egalitarian is. So, why don't you hold this position? I don't understand why you're accusing atheists of being fake egalitarians.

As far as I know, none of the women I've been with have faked their egalitarians.

(May 26, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Heywood Wrote: For an theist egalitarianism is an easy concept to accept.  People should be treated the same because God created them as equals.

Okay, so first of all, that is complete bullshit, because your bible makes it very clear that god did not create everyone as equals. In fact, your god has a chosen favorite people that he allows to run roughshod over their particular part of the world in the old testament, killing other races, enslaving them, and worse, all because they are chosen and have the right to do so. Anybody saying that god created everyone equal simply has not read, or is pretending not to have read, their bible.

Quote:  However if there is no God then there really isn't any rational reason to actually believe that all the different races, genders, or sexual orientations are actually equivalent.  There might be rational reasons to pretend the are equivalent....social harmony and such...but is there rational reason to believe they are actually equivalent?  It is simply too much of a stretch to think that nature, as a matter of happenstance, made all these things equivalent.

Can you provide a single argument or justification for the claim that people aren't equal? Not on an individual basis, of course; you'd have to be a moron not to see that individual humans have variations. But on the basis of race, gender, or sexual orientation, can you provide even a single thing, directly and exclusively related to those factors and nothing else, that would lead one to the conclusion that these groups aren't equal? Because I simply can't see it, and you're the one making this assumption that equality, barring god magic, is just "pretend," and that contradicts everything my lived experience has shown me. So, how about instead of just setting up a strawman and attacking that, you actually justify your claim before you just go about assuming that it's true?

Furthermore, can you provide a single reason why those reasons you provide, assuming that you even can, would lead us, rationally speaking, to not want to treat others as equal? I mean, reasons to denigrate or consider a person lesser, due to factors they cannot control? There's no benefit to it, and yet you're once again assuming that it's some natural state that we're pretending doesn't exist, and so I ask you again: justify your claim.

Quote: I don't hold an egalitarian position.  For instance I see no reason why men in general can't be better leaders than women or women in general can't be better leaders than men.

I notice, once again, a lack of any form of evidence to justify a venture away from egalitarianism; you might "see no reason," but you also haven't given a reason to adopt either of those positions, which is what you'd need to do. You'd also need to prove that those reasons are a product of the biological gender of the person alone, and no other factors, because if it's anything else then it's a quality not inherent to one gender or the other, and therefore doesn't apply to the situation you're trying to frame, as anyone, from any gender, could attain it.

Oh Rob....if only we could be sure of such matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgHThXuheOM

When I first found out what the word meant, my thoughts were, "Well, of course. Why would you be any other way?"

It's sad we even need words for things like this.

Yeah, I think the problem here is the charged word "fake". To fake something is to deceive. I don't think most people who ostensibly identify as "egalitarians" are maintaining that they really do believe everyone is perfectly equal; rather, to be an egalitarian is to strive towards equality and try to improve society so as to destroy, rather than perpetuate, inequality.