(May 30, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Secular Elf Wrote: And you don't necessarily have to have written words to be religious. The anthropological and archaeological record indicates many societies that had religious expressions of animism, totemism, and other basic primitive religious thought processes.

Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with the symbolic cultures that existed in prehistory. As a, and I use this term loosely, theist, my search for god manifested with an historic bent. Learning of the esoteric religions that existed before the standard doctrines existed helped to make me the atheist I am today.

Quote:If you are looking to satisfy your own curiosity I suggest learning about the history of how the Torah came to be and how the New Testament came to be. I have learned a lot through my own readings and tangents because of my interest in ancient Middle Eastern history. Studying the Sumerians I learned that nearly all the stories from the first few chapters of Genesis derive from Sumerian and Assyro-Babylonian mythology, which also interests me.

This is about all the knowledge I have, or was curious enough to seek, of the books. I was instinctively disinterested in the details of the things. Even before I was aware of the rules of logic and reason, and without even knowing how to put it into words, I knew my answers wouldn't come from inside the books, but from the times surrounding them. Now I know that this is because they are the claim, not the evidence. Funny how we can instinctively "feel" the disconnect, and yet not be able to explain it. At least, that's how it was for me a long time ago.

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(May 30, 2015 at 7:42 pm)robvalue Wrote: Pyrrho: You're absolutely right. I call all such arguments rationalisations, a defence mechanism for a predawn conclusion. And since the conclusion doesn't depend on these arguments, rebutals don't mean anything to them.

I'd be far more interested in the real reasons people believe, but on the whole they seem reluctant to discuss them in detail. Could this be because they really don't know what the reason is, or that they are worried it will sound irrational?

Once again, Rob, "That's a bingo." Either they've never really thought about it, and they go into a defensive mode to protect their belief, subconsciously, or they have thought about it and know damn well it's silly and irrational.

But this is why I have opened it up a bit. If any theists do decide to take on my questions, I want them to tell me whatever is in their gut. I don't want to hear some shored up version.

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(May 30, 2015 at 9:19 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:When I see my fellow atheists on here arguing with theists, and they're able to recall exact passages, I'm thinking "How the fuck?"

Um....fucking google, man.

Ah-HA! I fucking knew it! All you atheists are all the same. Pseudo-Intellectual chumps!

The search string jesus resurrection bullshit gets 9.8 million hits in .53 seconds.  Ya gotta be able to sort through that.

(May 29, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Exian Wrote: Lately, I've been very disinterested in anything to do with religion, which is probably why I've been so inactive with a majority of the discussions here. I just have a hard time taking it seriously. For me, the problem starts with man writing the bible; I can't get past that fact to lend myself to any other argument for the existence of a biblical god. Things only get slightly more fun with discussions on non-personal, I.D style gods, but not by much.

Now, I know that most Abrahamic theists believe that the authors were divinely inspired, but that's so fucking weak, so here are a few questions I'd like answered (yeah, this shit again):

1. What are your reasons for believing the authors were divinely inspired? (I'm not looking for definitive proof or anything, just your reason, so "because the bible says" is perfectly acceptable to me.)

2. What do you make of the fact that written language is a human invention?

3. Is there anybody that you know of who you would believe if they told you some stuff they wrote was the word of god, or divinely inspired? Why or why not?

4. What role does time play in the believability of a claim that some written words are the word of god?

5. Do you think religion would exist if writing was never invented?

I guess that's it for now. Again, I don't care what your reasons are, I'm not even really looking to argue, so "I just do believe" is fine. Just curious. Although, I may have comment or follow-up questions depending on the answers.

I am pretty on the fence about what I truly believe, but these are some answers that I would say from my point of view

1. I have read the bible several times, I found several things striking to me why it may be inspired. Some of these reasons will get ridiculed, but here we go... I do appreciate that the bible has many good principles on living your life. Some of them are archaic but we don't need a mosaic law anymore. That was not a perfect system but rather a system that the best possible system for the world of that time. Even when I read Leviticus 19, I really love the commandments in that chapter because it begins with saying that these are things that make you holy, or clean. Its less about rules and regulations and more about how you should treat people. 

I also think a lot about how the god of the bible is constantly reminding his followers that he is invisible and doesn't want anything made of wood or stone worshiped in place of him. I find that interesting since most gods have some kind of image that was worshiped too. It seems like the human inclination is to worship things that we can see. 

2. I don't really understand the point of the question. If the judeo christian god exists then whatever mode got us here doesn't matter. If humans evolved the skill of writing or if god gifted man with the ability it doesn't make a difference to me. 

3. For me there is not someone that I could say would write inspired scriptures today. Mostly based off Hebrews 1:1,2 where it says that god use to speak by means of prophets but now through his son Jesus

4. If the bible has been unchanged for thousands of years then it does make a difference to me. The only text that we can really compare are the dead sea scrolls and the masoretic texts that are hundreds of years apart with very minor differences. To me, that would seem less likely for humans to resist the urge to change the text in their favor over the years. 

5. I think this question is almost circular. If religion was invented then I don't think that any one single factor could have stopped it.]

Not a single thing I am saying is proof of god or the divinity of the scriptures. They're all just things, among others, that I ponder

Hey! Thanks for responding, nica. I have no interest in ridiculing yours or anyone's responses. I just appreciate the honesty. I'll probably respond in chunks. That's a little easier for me on my shitty little phone screen.

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Quote:I also think a lot about how the god of the bible is constantly reminding his followers that he is invisible and doesn't want anything made of wood or stone worshiped in place of him. I find that interesting since most gods have some kind of image that was worshiped too. It seems like the human inclination is to worship things that we can see.

This, to me, seems like the flavor of that particular month. The idea of the abstract was a gradual invention and ability of the human mind. Consider how the earliest religions started with worshiping tangible things like animals or the son/moon. This evolved to more fantastic ideas of half-human/half-animals, which evolved to become completely abstract ideas of what a god is.

And I can't seem to ignore that, even though an idol-less god was the original plan, man couldn't help but build statues of Jesus or to commission paintings of God himself. Christianity is filled to the brim with imagery, even though, as you've said, god reminds us that he is invisible. Man, uhhhh uh uhhhh finds a way.

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Quote:2. I don't really understand the point of the question. If the judeo christian god exists then whatever mode got us here doesn't matter. If humans evolved the skill of writing or if god gifted man with the ability it doesn't make a difference to me.

Yeah, sorry about that. My questions were hastily formed, and I have a bad habit of assuming people know what I'm talking about, while leaving out large chunks of information that I assume are implied.

What I mean is, if the bible is the way to salvation, knowing god, and not being sent to hell for whatever reason, and if writing is a human invention, then regardless of how old you think the earth and humanity are, humanity would have existed for generations before the bible came around. What of those people?

Except I'm not interested in the question or the answers to "What of those people?", because that answer will have been pulled out of the ass of whoever is answering. There's nothing written about that, AFAIK. I'm more interested in the question- Doesn't the notion that generations upon generations of humans are spending an eternity in hell according to a book, just because books weren't invented yet (and the widespread reach that goes along with them) throw the whole idea of god into question?

And speaking of humanity: What happened a to Ardipithecines, Australopithecines, and the rest of our close Homo genus cousins? That's for another time, maybe.

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Quote:3. For me there is not someone that I could say would write inspired scriptures today. Mostly based off Hebrews 1:1,2 where it says that god use to speak by means of prophets but now through his son Jesus

Ah, ok. Thank you.

Quote:4. If the bible has been unchanged for thousands of years then it does make a difference to me. The only text that we can really compare are the dead sea scrolls and the masoretic texts that are hundreds of years apart with very minor differences. To me, that would seem less likely for humans to resist the urge to change the text in their favor over the years.

I'm not sure what you're saying in this last part.

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Quote:5. I think this question is almost circular. If religion was invented then I don't think that any one single factor could have stopped it.

I agree. This was a horrible question. Especially since I already know religion in some form existed before writing. I barely remember what I was getting at. Maybe something to do with books giving ideas a vehicle with which to spread and persist.

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Quote:Not a single thing I am saying is proof of god or the divinity of the scriptures. They're all just things, among others, that I ponder

And I thank you for that! I don't care so much for stuffy rigid conversation forms. This was all I was looking for.

(May 29, 2015 at 9:56 pm)Exian Wrote: Lately, I've been very disinterested in anything to do with religion, which is probably why I've been so inactive with a majority of the discussions here. I just have a hard time taking it seriously. For me, the problem starts with man writing the bible; I can't get past that fact to lend myself to any other argument for the existence of a biblical god. Things only get slightly more fun with discussions on non-personal, I.D style gods, but not by much.

Now, I know that most Abrahamic theists believe that the authors were divinely inspired, but that's so fucking weak, so here are a few questions I'd like answered (yeah, this shit again):

1. What are your reasons for believing the authors were divinely inspired? (I'm not looking for definitive proof or anything, just your reason, so "because the bible says" is perfectly acceptable to me.)

2. What do you make of the fact that written language is a human invention?

3. Is there anybody that you know of who you would believe if they told you some stuff they wrote was the word of god, or divinely inspired? Why or why not?

4. What role does time play in the believability of a claim that some written words are the word of god?

5. Do you think religion would exist if writing was never invented?

I guess that's it for now. Again, I don't care what your reasons are, I'm not even really looking to argue, so "I just do believe" is fine. Just curious. Although, I may have comment or follow-up questions depending on the answers.

Ill try to answer from my perspective before I realized it was all bullshit and deconverted, I had been in essence forced into Christianity as a child and was privately schooled or home schooled up until 6th grade with a Christian education. 

1. I was told because the Bible says so and because that is what the Sunday school teachers and preachers said as well. I was indoctrinated to accept this at face value without questioning it. It became ingrained into my psyche so to speak. The whole don't rely on your own understanding argument.

2. I didn't encounter this as far as I can recall so I don't have an answer to this. For spoken language it was taught that the tower of babel story where people were tying to build a tower into heaven and god created all the different languages to confuse everyone so they couldn't build the tower.

3. Now I would not believe a word of it without evidence. Prior to that any preacher/pastor or trusted friend is who I would have believed, again this mind think was indoctrinated since childhood.

4. None that I can recall

5. I think it some sense it would, either as a method of comfort those who don't want to face what reality is, or as a method of control. Writing is not entirely essential for religion to exist. For example the Native Americans had theistic beliefs in many of their tribes but didn't have written language and passed down their beliefs through oral histories, stories, allegories and principles (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_religion additional sources at bottom of article for verification) 

God wasn't always invisible. In genesis he walks about like a man in full view. But really, it's not surprising that the first thing someone is going to say about something they can't prove exists is "It's invisible!"

My main problem with the argument that the bible is inspired (or any holy book) and that it's gods way of communicating with us is that it's about the very worst possible way of communicating us I could ever imagine. I bet anyone could list at least 5 better ways than this which would leave no doubt as to who was sending the message.

Let me have a guess at some of the "real" reasons people believe. These may be way off as I've never been under myself, so let me know if I'm on or off:

1) I've always been told it's true and those around me all think it's true

2) I'm scared to even think about it not being true, questioning God is a sin and I don't want to go to hell

3) It feels like it must be true

4) I haven't yet been given a better set of complete answers for how things all came to be

5) It makes me feel good inside to believe in it

6) I want/need it to be true, and I don't want to even think about reasons it might not be true

7) I'd rather keep believing than consider I've been wrong for all this time and that I've been fed a bunch of bull

I'm giving a rough guess that some combination of those are the underlying reasons for belief. All these other "arguments" are just defence mechanisms in order to not have to think about or challenge the core reasons. It is quite possible people do not realise the core reasons.

I agree Pyr, belief is a complex thing. It got me thinking when you said about the belief the Earth is spherical. Straight away I thought, "Oh crap! I better have some reasons for this!" On inspection, I found I have numerous sensible, testable reasons to believe this.

I think that is what I really want to do with theists, if they are interested in obliging. I want to find out these underlying reasons. I just don't accept that all these weak-ass pseudo logical arguments are what has convinced them, mainly because most of them "work" for any religion! If a theist hasn't even thought about those real reasons, I'd love to them to try. And then I'd be interested in hearing them analyse those beliefs, and see what other beliefs they rest on, like you say. I understand this is a scary thing for a theist to do, and I've encountered a lot of resistance in making this suggestion. I've tried with several people and I just get fobbed off with more cover arguments I've debunked a million times already.

If the theist's beliefs are actually true, they should not fear closer examination. I found it exciting rather than scary to examine why I believe what I do about the Earth, because I'm confident it will hold up, and if it doesn't, I want to know about it! It's the unexamined beliefs that cause all the problems I think.

What say you, theists? Do you want to travel into your mind and really challenge those beliefs?

Quote:1. I have read the bible several times, I found several things striking to me why it may be inspired. Some of these reasons will get ridiculed, but here we go... I do appreciate that the bible has many good principles on living your life. Some of them are archaic but we don't need a mosaic law anymore. That was not a perfect system but rather a system that the best possible system for the world of that time. Even when I read Leviticus 19, I really love the commandments in that chapter because it begins with saying that these are things that make you holy, or clean. Its less about rules and regulations and more about how you should treat people. 

...it wasn't "the best possible system" then, any more than it is now..by any means you'll be demonstrate -other- than your preference.  The idea that the "others" of the world were relative barabarians, was, is, and has -always been- nothing more than propaganda. I don;t think that you could have actually done an -ounce- of research here and still made this claim.

Quote:2. I don't really understand the point of the question. If the judeo christian god exists then whatever mode got us here doesn't matter. If humans evolved the skill of writing or if god gifted man with the ability it doesn't make a difference to me. 

Oh, idk.....your fellow man expended alot of effort to put together the written word, and it betters your quality of life immensely. I think you might want to have a little more respect for human effort (you probably wish that your own efforts were respected)...if your boss said to you " I don't care if you did your work or god did your work last night" - you might be a little miffed...lol.

(May 30, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Exian Wrote:

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Quote:I also think a lot about how the god of the bible is constantly reminding his followers that he is invisible and doesn't want anything made of wood or stone worshiped in place of him. I find that interesting since most gods have some kind of image that was worshiped too. It seems like the human inclination is to worship things that we can see.

This, to me, seems like the flavor of that particular month. The idea of the abstract was a gradual invention and ability of the human mind. Consider how the earliest religions started with worshiping tangible things like animals or the son/moon. This evolved to more fantastic ideas of half-human/half-animals, which evolved to become completely abstract ideas of what a god is.

And I can't seem to ignore that, even though an idol-less god was the original plan, man couldn't help but build statues of Jesus or to commission paintings of God himself. Christianity is filled to the brim with imagery, even though, as you've said, god reminds us that he is invisible. Man, uhhhh uh uhhhh finds a way.

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Did the Greeks believe that statues were their actual deities or did they use them the same way that Christians use paintings and carvings of Jesus and other religious figures?   The early Hebrews built an ark to house their god and there is imagery of a god in the bible, the burning bush, walking in the garden of Eden and even like a cloud pillar in Exodus. It seems as if the Hebrews concept of god changed with the rest of the world's. 

Christians sure do use a lot of those graven images for people who were specifically instructed not to.