(June 4, 2015 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 10:36 am)Nope Wrote: Did we cover this trick?

You would accept our explanation if you just took a chance and believed. The fact that you don't understand or accept our explanation means that you must never have believed. The fault is not in our explanation or believes but in your inability to just accept.

All the faith required is that to have one simply ask and seek God and continue to do so till you find Him. This is no more 'faith' than we exert in finding a spouce.

What do you mean by this? I got to know my husband, slept with him, saw how him at his best and worst before we married. I didn't and still don't have blind faith in him or anyone

(June 4, 2015 at 7:54 am)Nope Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Drich Wrote:

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First you called me a troll, then a Mormon, then a Calvinist, now anti theist? What is it with you and lables? How about Drich is simply telling you in his own words what it is the bible and God is really all about, without the filter of a big religious box church to sponcer/tell him what to say?

I don't remember calling you a Mormon but I didn't think that being a Calvinist was a bad thing. Many of your beliefs seem to line up with Calvinism. Can you link to the post where I called you a Mormon? It is pretty obvious you aren't Mormon as you have made it clear in other threads that you don't like it when we label them Christian. As far as calling you a troll, I have been suggesting that you might not be what you claim for a long time.  Overall, I think that I am usually pretty polite to you so I am confused why being called a Calvinist or my doubting your online persona would bother you.

I liked the original intent of this thread. 

Did anyone list changing goal posts? 

We had a discussion where I pointed out there were 4 sometimes 5 points to Calvinism I agree with one of them. That being predestination. For me Calvinism is a little too close to catholsism. My focus is on what the bible says, and not what consuls creeds or given doctrines say. Which make up the other 3 or 4 points of Calvinism.

As far as being a Mormon I'm pretty sure it was you when you first started posting and was trying to figure out my angle of attack. If not then it must have been someone else.

Also know I was not insulted by the lables. What I am trying to bring attention to is the fact that you use lables in order to try an attempt to use a broad brush established dismissal rather than speaking to the various points. Like for instance if I were a Mormon it would be easy to ignore me because look at the history of Mormonism and what they believe... Or if I were a Calvinist, then a lot of the arguments used by luthers to dismiss Calvinism would then apply...

as far as believeing what I say.. take it or leave it, it makes very little difference to me. My job is to spread the seed, not to make it grow. That what I did when you asked what does the Holy Spirit do. I gave you a lot of the Big examples of the Work of the Holy Spirit in my life. These are the things I believe and all of those examples plus hundreds if not thousands more are the reason I believe them.

Again, let's just say Absolutly everything I said was 100% true, and it all happened to you, could you pretend their wasn't a God? Could you not share when asked? What if people didn't believe you? what if they thought you were crazy? Again everything I said is true, its just not what others are use to dealing with. Even so if our places in life were reversed, could you be silent when someone asks you about what God has done for you?

Like it or not believe it or not this is where my life is as a result of the things (and more) that I have shared. The reason it is all hard to believe, because things like that don't normally converage all on one person unless in a movie. Subsequently these happenings are the reason I know there is a God because I know one or two experiences like this can all be just a matter of chance. It is when one make a life out of the abnormal that one can see the the hand of God setting trials and helping one over come them.

 

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(June 4, 2015 at 11:41 am)PhilliptheTeenageAtheist Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote: What makes you think anyone in Hell does not deserve to be there? A call from God does not mean one automatically gets to Heaven. Just like a call back on a job interview means you get the job or will even keep the job. Whether you get the job or not has to do with whether or not your qualified, not if you are liked. Is it the employer's fault not all who apply are qualified? Is it the employer's fault that not all who are call back will want the job, or rather keep the job?

The same is true here with God. Not all are call because one not all want to go. There are many here on this website who will admit to that. Second not all who are called will heed the call. Those who do really want to be there for all the right reasons. There is not one example of anyone who wanted to be with god for the right reasons who was ever turned away.

Look at who Jesus called and they turned away: The rich young ruler, The pharrisees, The saducees, The Scribes, and lets not forget Judas. All were called some never considered Christ's offer, Some did, but realized they had too much to give up, so they turned and walked away. In the case of Judas he heard the call followed Christ for a while then turned on Him.

So again to be called does not mean will follow that calling. I would suggest if you ever Heard the gospel in your life time, you have heard that call.

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I'm not necessarily talking about me. What of someone in a remote tribe in Africa or Papua New Guinea who truly has never heard of the Bible or Jesus? Do they go to hell just out of bad geographical luck?

I did not mean to imply those who did not ever hear the gospel were among those who were never called.I simply said I believe if you ever heard the gospel you have definatly been called. I believe those who never heard the gospel will be judged by the same Jesus Christ those who have heard it will be judged. And it is to His righteous standard we will stand or fall. As we are told in Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word is another name for Jesus as per John 1:1
This verse is saying Jesus is going to slice our doings, motives and intentions down to deli thins slices and judge every aspect of our lives with complete knowledge and transparency. Meaning he will know absolutely every motive thought or reason you had, considered or ignored to do the things in life that you did. This means you will be righteously judged, whether you knew him or not.

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:08 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 10:14 am)Drich Wrote: Precisely! And both whether the Bible Exists and whether it works is easily tested! And it Does work. The Book exists, it offers clear instruction, and it works everytime per the promise of God!!

Wow I guess we are on the same page.

Drich, you can't keep up this spiel when we've literally seen you dismiss each and every test that fails as irrelevant because you've built "the test succeeds" into the steps of the test. You're being dishonest.

It's real simple Lax.. there are three steps out line by Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. Ask, seek Knock. Now if one seek and does not knock, or knocks and ask, but does not seek then they have not followed the steps. like wise if on asks and seek but does not knock (As is the case with everyone on this web site who has ever claimed to follow the directions of Luke 11 but did not find God by their own admission) Then they did not follow the outline Christ tells us to follow in Luke 11. So then if you all can admit to not knocking, then why is it you would expect to find God?

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Sorry Drips, like my favorite grapes I am seedless.

Ah, switch to boxers, they will help your 'boys' stay cool.

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:25 pm)Nope Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote: All the faith required is that to have one simply ask and seek God and continue to do so till you find Him. This is no more 'faith' than we exert in finding a spouce.

What do you mean by this? I got to know my husband, slept with him, saw how him at his best and worst before we married. I didn't and still don't have blind faith in him or anyone

Before you met your husband, did you know his name, did you know his DOB? did you know he existed in any way? Or did you see those who were married and say to yourself I want to find a spouce even though you may not have known that your 'soul mate' even existed.. or maybe existed and went to war and never came home or something tragic like that...

Did you marry the first person you went out on a date with? did you crown the first person to bring you flowers your soul mate? or did you keep asking and seeking (this is what Jesus Identifies as knocking) till you found the guy you ultimately married? If you had to go through 100 A-holes to find the guy your with now would you do that? or would you give up and just not have married?

(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote: It's real simple Lax.. there are three steps out line by Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. Ask, seek Knock. Now if one seek and does not knock, or knocks and ask, but does not seek then they have not followed the steps. like wise if on asks and seek but does not knock (As is the case with everyone on this web site who has ever claimed to follow the directions of Luke 11 but did not find God by their own admission) Then they did not follow the outline Christ tells us to follow in Luke 11. So then if you all can admit to not knocking, then why is it you would expect to find God?

Yeah, repeating the problematic argument doesn't make it less so: when you define the final "knock" step as "finding god," then there's no failure state for the test, making it unfalsifiable and not a good test. I don't think I've ever seen you answer for this glaring flaw, you seem to just want to ignore it and continue lying by saying there's a good test for god.

Quote:Before you met your husband, did you know his name, did you know his DOB? did you know he existed in any way? Or did you see those who were married and say to yourself I want to find a spouce even though you may not have known that your 'soul mate' even existed.. or maybe existed and went to war and never came home or something tragic like that...

Did you marry the first person you went out on a date with? did you crown the first person to bring you flowers your soul mate? or did you keep asking and seeking (this is what Jesus Identifies as knocking) till you found the guy you ultimately married? If you had to go through 100 A-holes to find the guy your with now would you do that? or would you give up and just not have married?

The difference is that marriage is not a concept we need to test, as we already have plenty of evidence that it exists; we know that it's possible to fall in love and get married from the outset. Conversely, you're posing this A/S/K nonsense as a test to discover that god exists, a being that we have no idea whether it's possible or not. Given that the test is to find god, you cannot simply add "find god" as the final step of the test, because that is ridiculous. It'd be like if I gave you a test to find Brahma, and the last step was "find Brahma," would you take that at all seriously? Would you even consider taking that test?

(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote:

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(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote: Before you met your husband, did you know his name, did you know his DOB? did you know he existed in any way? Or did you see those who were married and say to yourself I want to find a spouce even though you may not have known that your 'soul mate' even existed.. or maybe existed and went to war and never came home or something tragic like that...

Did you marry the first person you went out on a date with? did you crown the first person to bring you flowers your soul mate? or did you keep asking and seeking (this is what Jesus Identifies as knocking) till you found the guy you ultimately married? If you had to go through 100 A-holes to find the guy your with now would you do that? or would you give up and just not have married?

I had no desire to marry until after meeting my husband so I wasn't looking for a spouse. Love and marriage have never been my main focus in life so I think you analogy falls flat with me. 

The only comparison between my relationship with my husband and Jesus is  ....nothing. Unless Jesus is a great lover and gets cranky when his knees start to hurt, I just don't see the similarity. 

(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote: It's real simple Lax.. there are three steps out line by Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. Ask, seek Knock. Now if one seek and does not knock, or knocks and ask, but does not seek then they have not followed the steps. like wise if on asks and seek but does not knock (As is the case with everyone on this web site who has ever claimed to follow the directions of Luke 11 but did not find God by their own admission) Then they did not follow the outline Christ tells us to follow in Luke 11. So then if you all can admit to not knocking, then why is it you would expect to find God?

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Are you saying, that if someone misses one of the steps, i.e., lets say they ask and knock, but do not seek, that they won't find god?

Let's say this person is as sincere as they could possibly be. They've read the Bible, yet through misunderstanding or being misinformed by another Christian, they miss that step, will god see their plight, see their sincerity, see that they almost got it right, but not allow them to find him, and therefore sending them to hell?

Are there any examples you can think of where someone did not follow these steps, yet found god anyway?

Quote:The difference is that marriage is not a concept we need to test, as we already have plenty of evidence that it exists; we know that it's possible to fall in love and get married from the outset.

Why? Because other people have found 'the one true love of their life' and you can witness how they are effected and how it changes them? So again how is that any different than observing someone who has truly found God?

In the end you know the concept of marriage is sound because you see people successfully living under that covenant. However until you step up, say your vows and get tested by the trials this life can offer. you can not know if marriage, or even your spouce will be right for you. Even if 'others' can live with the same spouce their whole life.

You should know as well as anyone that marriage is not always a 50%/50% exchange where your needs are met on an equal and even exchange ratio of meeting the needs of your spouces need. Sometimes one spouce has to carry the other for an extended period, sometimes that one spouce has to put out 80 to 90% till for as long as they both live. Some can do this others can not, and despite what we think we will never know till we are tested. The point being, when I am drawing paralells between God and marriage am not speaking to the validity of the institution of marriage or the institutions that surround God. Because as you pointed out it clear to see it exists as others live under said vows in both cases.

The question is, will YOU find a spouce to live the rest of your life with?/With you Find God and spend eternity with Him? If the answer to your first question is Yes... Ask yourself did you do ALL You had to do to meet up with your wife to be and marry her because You had 'evidence' that it will all work out just the way you want it to work out before you got married/Before you changed your whole life around?
-Or were all of your efforts, your 'great journey' and everything you left behind, a massive undertaking of faith that had you A/S/K'ing for 'the one' person you 'feel' you can spend the rest of your life with no matter what that means?

Quote: Conversely, you're posing this A/S/K nonsense as a test to discover that god exists, a being that we have no idea whether it's possible or not. Given that the test is to find god, you cannot simply add "find god" as the final step of the test, because that is ridiculous. It'd be like if I gave you a test to find Brahma, and the last step was "find Brahma," would you take that at all seriously? Would you even consider taking that test?

Just like the final step in the question of whether or not you can find a soul mate to marry, Can't be to 'get married' to the person you love. How crazy is that? Everyone knows if we are to find a 'soul mate' we must have tangible evidence along with several spread sheets worth of data that conclusively points to a 90 to 95% liklyhood that the marriage will last your whole life. Then and only then does one get married.

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(June 4, 2015 at 3:43 pm)Nope Wrote: I had no desire to marry until after meeting my husband so I wasn't looking for a spouse. Love and marriage have never been my main focus in life so I think you analogy falls flat with me. 

The only comparison between my relationship with my husband and Jesus is  ....nothing. Unless Jesus is a great lover and gets cranky when his knees start to hurt, I just don't see the similarity. 

You did Marry your HUSBAND right? If so why? Was it because you want to share the rest of your life with him? or do you have some sort of lease agreement marriage where it has to be renewed every 5 years?

Even if you were not marriage crazy, when the 'love bug' bit you seem to have fallen in like the rest of us with the sames hopes the vast majority/everyone wants when we marry for love. If that is the case then explain to me how it is that this marriage analogy does not apply?

Did you two not date? Did you not date anyone before him? Did He not date anyone before you? was it arranged, or did you get to know each other fall in love and decide to get married? Did you ever have a fight (Ever) before or after the marriage? Are you still together after the fight?

Don't look now snow flake, but you in your marriage You have followed the very same A/S/K requirement Jesus told us to employ in seeking God.

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(June 4, 2015 at 4:33 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote: It's real simple Lax.. there are three steps out line by Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. Ask, seek Knock. Now if one seek and does not knock, or knocks and ask, but does not seek then they have not followed the steps. like wise if on asks and seek but does not knock (As is the case with everyone on this web site who has ever claimed to follow the directions of Luke 11 but did not find God by their own admission) Then they did not follow the outline Christ tells us to follow in Luke 11. So then if you all can admit to not knocking, then why is it you would expect to find God?

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Are you saying, that if someone misses one of the steps, i.e., lets say they ask and knock, but do not seek, that they won't find god?

Let's say this person is as sincere as they could possibly be. They've read the Bible, yet through misunderstanding or being misinformed by another Christian, they miss that step, will god see their plight, see their sincerity, see that they almost got it right, but not allow them to find him, and therefore sending them to hell?

Are there any examples you can think of where someone did not follow these steps, yet found god anyway?

Jesus answers this question himself in the Parable of the seeds.

Basically when farmers planted a field they tilled the ground and just threw the seed into the air (broadcasting) and let the seed fall where it may. in the parable Jesus speaks of the different types of ground the seed could fall on. The first was rocky with light soil top/shallow soil, when the seed fell on this ground plant sprouted quickly but because it was rocky just below the surface the seed could not set roots down and the plant died.

 Next type was hard pan/rocks no soil. Those seed were left in the open air they were steped on and the birds took them away.

 Next was the soil who was not tilled and hosted other plants. Those seeds got choked out because of the plants that already lived there.

Then their was good soil that when seeds fell on it they took root and produced fruit. (Those who A/S/K)

In short those who do not follow the whole A/S/K direction, but truly give it their own honest earnest go, are like the first type of rocky soil who seed sprouts up quickly but dies because it can not take root.

Drich, I have read your post several times and I still don't understand what similarities you think exist between converting to your faith and marriage.  I am not being sarcastic. I really have no idea what your basis is for the comparison

People exist. We know this because evidence of their existence permeates our world. We are all born from people. We all interact directly and indirectly with other humans all the time. These interactions are verifiable. We can record them in a multitude of ways beyond our own memories and perceptions.

Not so with god. Any god. So the entire analogy is idiotic, based on a weird and naive romanticism that doesn't actually mean anything.

(June 4, 2015 at 3:43 pm)Nope Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Drich Wrote: Before you met your husband, did you know his name, did you know his DOB? did you know he existed in any way? Or did you see those who were married and say to yourself I want to find a spouce even though you may not have known that your 'soul mate' even existed.. or maybe existed and went to war and never came home or something tragic like that...

Did you marry the first person you went out on a date with? did you crown the first person to bring you flowers your soul mate? or did you keep asking and seeking (this is what Jesus Identifies as knocking) till you found the guy you ultimately married? If you had to go through 100 A-holes to find the guy your with now would you do that? or would you give up and just not have married?

# They try to make their point with irrelevant analogies that don't have the slightest thing to do with the point they're trying to make. Then when we're not convinced, they tell themselves the devil has blinded our eyes. Hey Drich, why don't you shake the dust from your feet and jmove on as you were commanded to do?