Essentially, the problem is this: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. However you conceive of this idea, they are one entity. Therefore, how was God sacrificing Jesus not sacrificing himself to himself? Yes, it was so that our sins could be forgiven. But they were forgiven BY GOD. So God could've forgiven us without sacrificing himself, or a part of himself, presumably.

Your doctrine makes about as much sense as this picture:

http://asdfhj.com/wp-content/vaderwaterfilter7bj.jpg

(September 27, 2010 at 5:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Here's someone who is an atheist and is trying to tell me that I have no idea who God is and what salvation is about and how it's attained and every time I give an answer he/she tells me I'm wrong then tries to dictate how I'm to respond to his/her statements. That in my opinion is purely childish which he/she probably is. His/her arguments make no sense and are layed out in a no win proposition that's unreasonable and to all that disagree please go back and at least read the commemts made by both parties before you make your judgement. IceSage if you want to have a reasonable debate please consider what I originally posted do it through scriptures give book chapter and verse/s the only time you did I gave you a valid response that you dismissed without explanation.

Debating with a Christian apologist is like shooting fish in a barrel...

...except that the fish think they're winning.

@TOO- He did sacrifice part of himself. If you picure it like a person, God the Father would be from the neck up. God the Son would be from the neck down left side. God the Spirit would be from the neck down right side. Now what if each of those 3 sections had a mind and a will of their own. The only whole way to function is to be of unified purpose and mind. They were also all three intrinsically aware of each other as they were all connected. Jesus didn't really go anywhere because he's coming back. So it's like you voluntarily allow 1/3 of your body to suffer tremendous grief, pain and emotion and the tumultuousness of actually living on the planet just to get a message to us. Is that an imagery you can make sense of?

(September 27, 2010 at 5:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: Here's someone who is an atheist and is trying to tell me that I have no idea who God is and what salvation is about and how it's attained and every time I give an answer he/she tells me I'm wrong then tries to dictate how I'm to respond to his/her statements. That in my opinion is purely childish which he/she probably is. His/her arguments make no sense and are layed out in a no win proposition that's unreasonable and to all that disagree please go back and at least read the commemts made by both parties before you make your judgement. IceSage if you want to have a reasonable debate please consider what I originally posted do it through scriptures give book chapter and verse/s the only time you did I gave you a valid response that you dismissed without explanation.

No, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise of your precise idea of whatever relationship or knowledge you have about God.

And no, not every time you give an answer (by the way, you've provided no real answers. Tell me I watch too much TV is not a proper answer) do I say you're wrong. What I've said is that the things you're saying towards me is wrong, and that your excuses in avoiding the simple matter are wrong.

If you want to have a reasonable debate, simply tell me how I'm wrong that God is 3 entities, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... all apart and God at the same time, but from what you're trying to say, they're not God.

This is the subject of discussion we were having. You are saying that I am wrong. The only replies you've come up with is saying I watch too much TV, and I'm not talking about the bible.

The trinity is God. God is the trinity. This IS the basic understanding of the New Testament and the main focus on what's suppose to bring you salvation.

For some reason, you're telling me it's not true, and that God is not the Trinity, and vise versa.

Please, without making non-sequitors, tell me how I am wrong. End of discussion. If you can't, and you start RAMBLING ABOUT TEH TVS AND TEH MEDIA CORRUPTIN' MAH BRAINS then I'm done with you. You can make all the retarded and witty replies that you want, they're not going to be taken seriously unless it's a logical and basic reply that tells me why I am wrong.

I'm willing to change my understanding of your religion and have a better grasp of it, but first you need to actually reply with actual facts and answers.

You have another chance... And... GO!

Quote:Your doctrine makes about as much sense as this picture:

http://asdfhj.com/wp-content/vaderwaterfilter7bj.jpg

That picture makes perfect sense! Darth Vader must've crash landed somewhere... And he only had a Britta water filter to help provide him with clean drinking water.

Of course, Darth Vader's knowledge of sea water and Britta's filtering process is severely lacking...

Quote:Here's someone who is an atheist and is trying to tell me that I have no idea who God is and what salvation is about

Someone needs to help you out. You clearly can't seem to get out of the muddle on your own.

I said that God is the Trinity there's the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, these are the three persons of God. However you said that God sacrficed Himself to Himself and that is where I disagree with you. First Christ gave His life for us, He sacrificed Himself for us, His sacrifice was not made to the Father so God did not sacrifice Himself to Himself. Second the only way God could sacrifice Himself to Himself is if He were only one person, but God is three persons with the same mind, same heart, same love, same righteousness and ect. IceSage here are a number of verses that show that God is One and yet three persons, yes, individual persons sharing all the same attributes. Genesis 3:22, Matt.3:13-17, Matt.18:19-20, Matt.20:28, Matt.26:29, Matt.26:39, Matt.26:42, Matt.26:53, Matt.26:54, Matt.27:19, Matt.27:46.

Mark 2:28-29, Mark 2:31-35, Mark 8:38, Mark 9:7, Mark 10:36-37, Mark 12:35-37, Mark 13:11, Mark 13:32.

Luke 2:47-52, Luke 4:5-8, Luke 4:9-12, Luke 4:17-22, Luke 4:43, Luke 9:16, Luke 10:21-22, Luke 11:11-13, Luke 12:8-12, Luke 23:34, Luke 23:46, Luke 24:49.

John 2:16, John 3:16-18, John 4:34, John 5:17, John 6;26-27, John 6:35-51, John 6:65, John 7:16-18, John 7:37-39, John 8:28-30, John 8:39-43, John 8:49-50, John 9:53-56, John 10:14-18, John 10:24-30, John 10:31-38, John 12:27-30, John 12:44-50, John 13:31-32, John 14, John 15, John 16, John 17, John 20:17

These verses are from the English Standard Version and some of the verse numbers may not match-up exactly with the version you use but they are close. By the way get over the TV thing it was more a poke for fun than anything else.

If you choose to read these verses as I did and want to discuss any of them say so and we'll discuss them.

(September 29, 2010 at 11:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: First Christ gave His life for us, He sacrificed Himself for us, His sacrifice was not made to the Father so God did not sacrifice Himself to Himself.

When you make an animal sacrifice to appease the gods (or Yahweh) for your sins, the animal isn't being sacrificed to the priest. The animal is (theoretically) being sacrificed to the gods to appease their wrath.

In cultures that offered human sacrifices to appease the gods, the human isn't dying for the community, even though the are theoretically the beneficiaries. The human is being sacrificed to the gods.

Jesus was essentially to be the penultimate sacrifice for sins, to appease the wrath of Yahweh and pave the way for our salvation (theoretically). He replaced the need for animal sacrifices as he performed that very role. He was sacrificed to Yahweh, as the previous animals were. You can't use the fact that we are (theoretically) the beneficiaries to obfuscate the issue. Yahweh is who he was sacrificed to.

But he IS Yahweh, and so he is sacrificing himself to himself in order to convince himself to forgive us.

Clear?

I'll give Kudos as well, but I feel the need point out:

(September 30, 2010 at 1:06 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(September 29, 2010 at 11:51 pm)Godschild Wrote: First Christ gave His life for us, He sacrificed Himself for us, His sacrifice was not made to the Father so God did not sacrifice Himself to Himself.

When you make an animal sacrifice to appease the gods (or Yahweh) for your sins, the animal isn't being sacrificed to the priest. The animal is (theoretically) being sacrificed to the gods to appease their wrath.

In cultures that offered human sacrifices to appease the gods, the human isn't dying for the community, even though the are theoretically the beneficiaries. The human is being sacrificed to the gods.

Jesus was essentially to be the penultimate sacrifice for sins, to appease the wrath of Yahweh and pave the way for our salvation (theoretically). He replaced the need for animal sacrifices as he performed that very role. He was sacrificed to Yahweh, as the previous animals were. You can't use the fact that we are (theoretically) the beneficiaries to obfuscate the issue. Yahweh is who he was sacrificed to.

But he IS Yahweh, and so he is sacrificing himself to himself in order to convince himself to forgive us.

Clear?

This.


The phrase "Sacrificed himself, to himself" is not an erroneous statement.

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: @TOO- He did sacrifice part of himself.

To what did he sacrifice part of himself?

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: If you picure it like a person, God the Father would be from the neck up. God the Son would be from the neck down left side. God the Spirit would be from the neck down right side.

...so God has no control over the son and the holy spirit? Do any of them have control over each other?

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: Now what if each of those 3 sections had a mind and a will of their own.

Then they would be regarded as separate entities. I'll give you an example.

Conjoined twins share one body, but each have a mind of their own and have control of certain parts of that body. They are regarded as separate entities, not as one.

Your analogy also fails by differentiating between the will of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. If they are all part of a perfect being, why would the will of one need to be different from another and have a mind distinctly different than the other? Why even make that distinction?

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: The only whole way to function is to be of unified purpose and mind. They were also all three intrinsically aware of each other as they were all connected.

You're regarding them as separate entities in your text, and making the inference that the entities can choose for themselves to function as a unit, as they are aware of themselves. This makes no sense if you're trying to make the point that there is only one God where there are obviously 3, each with a distinct will, although they may share similar purposes.

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: Jesus didn't really go anywhere because he's coming back.

"Coming back" implies he went somewhere. If I go out for milk and come back, and my girlfriend asks me, where did you go? I can't say "I didn't go anywhere", when that is obviously false.

(September 28, 2010 at 1:46 pm)tackattack Wrote: So it's like you voluntarily allow 1/3 of your body to suffer tremendous grief, pain and emotion and the tumultuousness of actually living on the planet just to get a message to us. Is that an imagery you can make sense of?

No, because it makes no sense.

You're painting a picture that God sent a part of his body (who has a mind and will of its own) to Earth in order to get a message to us by bludgeoning that part to death for a sacrifice to the rest of the body, only to resurrect that part after a weekend to join the rest of the body (who also has a mind and will of its own) in heaven, for which people are required to believe and pray to that part of the body for their ultimate salvation. But that part didn't really leave, as it's coming back, and the distinct wills and minds of the body parts are actually one, and should be regarded as one, unless they're being regarded as three, in which case 3 = 1.

....right.

To use your analogy of the conjoined twins, yes we can seperate them surgically and indeed have truly seperate entitis, butin realit don't conjoined twins share the same dna and fingerprints? Can one be in Oklahoma and another go to Virginia? By design they move as one. By design tehy're made of one substance. Can you not see a conjoined twin walk down the street and accuratly say he's walking down the street or they are walking down the street. Wouldn't both be accurate. One the singular object in it's entirey or multiple each individual personality? By action their purposes and wills are different therefore they can interact with us in different ways. Jesus took human form. The Spirit resides within us. God resides in Heaven. To answer your question he sacrificed himself for us by going through the trials and tribulations in human form. There is no sacrificing to. It would be like saying " I sacrificed some of my time to help the homeless" Who are you sacrificing to? No one really, just another way of saying giving something up to get something done.