(June 19, 2015 at 3:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hell no!  You a freshwater or saltwater man?  I used to fish for trout /w a buddy of mine, JW like yourself......some of my best memories....so it won't get in the way..lol.  He knew the spots.  I was more of a shark guy at the time, though I don't think we ever threw a baited anchor out for blacktip.....wish we had,   haven't seen him in years.

It's a new endeavor for me but its all about fly fishing right now.

I tried to get into that (it didn't take)...I've gotta ask, (as a JW...lol) is it the action of the rod or tieing the flies?  For me, it was the flies.  Seemed like so much fun, small work, detail work, lots of concentration. Gorgeous end product (with practice, of course...not that I ever got to that point).

(June 19, 2015 at 4:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I tried to get into that (it didn't take)...I've gotta ask, (as a JW...lol) is it the action of the rod or tieing the flies?  For me, it was the flies.  Seemed like so much fun, small work, detail work, lots of concentration.  Gorgeous end product (with practice, of course...not that I ever got to that point).

I love the river mainly. And its really difficult which I love too. I still suck pretty bad at it but I love it

I never even got to the point of sucking bad.....that would have been an improvement.  I shovel fish out of the water, impale them on pointed sticks, or just wait for them to punch their own numbers in a variety of ways...all this back and forth with the wrist, is, apparently beyond my abilities.

(June 18, 2015 at 12:26 am)Rhythm Wrote: You're familiar with the term hellenism, as a witness, I assume?  Would you like to begin there, a few hundred years before anything we would call "christian" arose as a separate and distinct religious identity from "jewish"?  If you are familiar, just catch me up on what you know about hellenism and christianity so I don't end up talking down to you as though you were ignorant - and we can have some fun?

As a light intro in the interim, are you familiar with the jewish concept of the afterlife?  That when you die, that's it, you're done, no resurrection, no eternal life?  You can thank hellenization for the departure from there, to your ideas of a limited (albeit existent) heaven, and of a bodily resurrection.  So...no, I'm not talking calendars and holidays, now am I?

Before you respond...I want you to keep in mind that there is no shame in this, I am not telling you that your beliefs about resurrection or heaven are wrong to hold...or that they're "unchristian"-.  There's no need to defend the accuracy of those beliefs (and it would be pointless with me specifically, as you already know).

The Zoroastarians (Persians) came up with the idea of heaven and hell, angels and demons, saviors, resurrections, judgment days.  The Greeks may have adopted those ideas but they did not originate them.

The greeks themselves were fairly famous adopters (not quite as prolific as the romans..on that count), yes...but hellenism (in this context) only refers to the cultural phenomenon of the transmission of greek thought (however arrived at...borrowed, or stolen) that swept the entire western world for a long period of time.  The persians were successful, but never like this, and never to this extent...again...in the western world (maybe because the greeks fucked them up and took control of their territory at the begining of the period? one of those original "clash of worlds" events where the victors take the spoils and write the history). It was just about impossible to prevent, given that the greeks were writing other folks stories for them...in greek, and we lean on it heavily today. Their idioms and notions would have crept in by default, by accident, had people not valued them...which they did, and people -did- value them as well.

(June 20, 2015 at 12:27 am)Rhythm Wrote: The greeks themselves were fairly famous adopters (not quite as prolific as the romans..on that count), yes...but hellenism only refers to the cultural phenomenon of the transmission of greek thought (however arrived at...borrowed, or stolen) that swept the entire western world for a long period of time.  The persians were successful, but never like this, and never to this extent...again...in the western world.  It was just about impossible to prevent, given that the greeks were writing other folks stories for them...in greek, and we lean on it heavily today.  Their idioms and notions would have crept in by default, by accident, had people not valued them...which they did.

A combination Greek/Persian story is told in the books of Maccabees in the Catholic Bible.

Talking about 1st Macabees...it does -begin- with the rise (and fall) of Alexander.......which was the beginning of the hellenistic period - and when the cultural fate of the western world was essentially sealed by the defeat of Persians.....so....by time we get to 2nd Macabees we have jewsh heros setting up little "mini-greeces"...pissing off fundamentalists. The narrative, overall, tells us that the underdogs (the "more jewy jews") won -some sort of victory-....but if they did...it appears that they;d somehow turned into the very enemy they were fighting by conflicts end......reminded a bit of some remarks by JFK...on that count..at a much later time and slightly different place, lol.

But, which story, specifically, and what of it?

(and mind you, I'm only considering the details of the story..not vouching for their accuracy in any specific sense..lol)

(June 20, 2015 at 12:38 am)Rhythm Wrote: Talking about 1st Macabees...it does -begin- with the rise (and fall) of Alexander.......which was the beginning of the hellenistic period - and when the cultural fate of the western world was essentially sealed by the defeat of Persians.....so....by time we get to 2nd Macabees we have jewsh heros setting up little "mini-greeces"...pissing off fundamentalists.  The narrative, overall, tells us that the underdogs (the "more jewy jews") won -some sort of victory-....but if they did...it appears that they;d somehow turned into the very enemy they were fighting by conflicts end......reminded a bit of some remarks by JFK...on that count..at a much later time and slightly different place, lol.

But, which story, specifically, and what of it?

(and mind you, I'm only considering the details of the story..not vouching for their accuracy in any specific sense..lol)

Are you familar with Antiochus IV Epiphanes?  He was a real person and his deeds are discussed in the Maccabee books. He was a biblical god.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

Indeed I am, the subject of yet another of the many stunning failures of prophecy contained within the "word of god".  I don't know that I'd call him a "biblical" god...but he certainly must have thought highly of himself when he assumed the title Epiphanes, eh?  The almighty never -did- get around to miraculously destroying the man, in any case.   He got sick and died while blissfully looting Persian temples before Yahweh could swing the axe, and the Messianic Kingdom never came to pass.