Ok, a few thoughts on this.

It's absurd to see the Faux News crowd talk about this. They actually blamed the shooting on a hatred of Christians, in spite of the fact that his manifesto pretty clearly placed his hatred at other races, not the nations' dominant religion. They seem to be willing to point their fingers in all kinds of crazy directions, but they're unwilling to admit racism is a thing.

I'll be the first to admit, I've seen people who claim to be advocates for black people that have kinda jumped the shark. But I've also seen real racial issues in the country, too. I do have to admit, the more hyperbolic racial advocates aren't helping their cause; instead, they're just crying wolf and convincing people that nothing they have to say is worth listening to (which, in turn, means they're also going to be ignored when real racial issues come up).

You could say the two groups are mirror images of each other: One refuses to acknowledge that race isn't an issue at all anymore while the other forcibly injects race into every issue. In the end, I think we need to find a way to meet somewhere in a more reasonable, middle ground.

And with this coming up on the heels of the black teenager being tackled by the white cop and the Baltimore riots and a host of other cases involving police killing black people for, at best, questionable reasons, I can see some serious anger from black communities. And I think it's justified to have that anger. The only question is, what is going to be done about it? Are the police going to keep killing black men for no good reason, while black communities continue to burn themselves down in protest? Or are we going to take a realistic look at race issues in America and attempt to deal with them in a realistic manner?

(June 23, 2015 at 8:18 am)Chas Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 8:15 am)Brian37 Wrote: Yes he was a racist, and the flag should NOT be used as an issue. But to say the flag didn't shoot anyone is like saying the Koran doesn't slam planes into buildings.  Both are objects, but as you indicated, access to those objects allows people to use them for violence.

I do agree we have a flooded market of guns. They are made like candy and handed out like candy.

When is the last time you spent hundreds of dollars for a piece of candy or underwent a background check to get it? 

Oh fuck off, you act like getting a gun is like putting man on the moon. Yea you do have to go through those things and yes, guns are expensive. Marriages are easy to get into too, and quite expensive and without good planning can end up quite nasty.

Nope sorry, if what you say about cost and background checks(fyi are not universal) were solving the problem, we would not have the amount of gun death. You don't believe me that guns are plentiful? Go into any Pawn shop that sells them, count the number of guns in that one shop. Then go to another, count those, repeat repeat repeat, . Then go to a hunting or sporting shop that sells them, count those too.


Yes they are far too easy to get and they are pumped out like any other massively produced product.

Just this morning one of the members of that church said "God is in control", really? Look lady, what happened sucked and nobody likes losing friends and loved ones for any reason, especially not like that. But "in control"? WHAT THE FUCK? Was he taking a smoke break when Roof pulled out his gun and murdered 9 people? God " Sorry folks, I am on my smoke break, I'll get back to you after the fact".

Would anyone value a doctor who acted like that? You are having a heart attack, you are in the ER and the doctor says, "Yea I could and do have the power to save you, but I am having lunch right now".

Sorry believers, the logic simply does not work.

(June 25, 2015 at 9:14 am)Brian37 Wrote: Just this morning one of the members of that church said "God is in control", really? Look lady, what happened sucked and nobody likes losing friends and loved ones for any reason, especially not like that. But "in control"? WHAT THE FUCK? 

...

People believe what they want.  They see what they want to see.  
I think OFTEN times when these things are said, the christian saying them is also desperately hoping that he will believe it himself.  
Many many years ago, when I was a devout Christian, I said those identical words, hoping upon hope that they were true.  
Often the best liar is the one in the mirror.

(June 23, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 8:18 am)Chas Wrote: When is the last time you spent hundreds of dollars for a piece of candy or underwent a background check to get it? 

Oh fuck off, you act like getting a gun is like putting man on the moon. Yea you do have to go through those things and yes, guns are expensive. Marriages are easy to get into too, and quite expensive and without good planning can end up quite nasty.

Nope sorry, if what you say about cost and background checks(fyi are not universal) were solving the problem, we would not have the amount of gun death. You don't believe me that guns are plentiful? Go into any Pawn shop that sells them, count the number of guns in that one shop. Then go to another, count those, repeat repeat repeat, . Then go to a hunting or sporting shop that sells them, count those too.


Yes they are far too easy to get and they are pumped out like any other massively produced product.

Your emotional exaggerations and false comparisons are tedious.

(June 27, 2015 at 2:14 am)Chas Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Oh fuck off, you act like getting a gun is like putting man on the moon. Yea you do have to go through those things and yes, guns are expensive. Marriages are easy to get into too, and quite expensive and without good planning can end up quite nasty.

Nope sorry, if what you say about cost and background checks(fyi are not universal) were solving the problem, we would not have the amount of gun death. You don't believe me that guns are plentiful? Go into any Pawn shop that sells them, count the number of guns in that one shop. Then go to another, count those, repeat repeat repeat, . Then go to a hunting or sporting shop that sells them, count those too.


Yes they are far too easy to get and they are pumped out like any other massively produced product.

Oh, fuck off.  Your emotional exaggerations and false comparisons are tedious and do nothing to move the conversation forward.

(June 23, 2015 at 12:56 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Ok, a few thoughts on this.  

It's absurd to see the Faux News crowd talk about this.  They actually blamed the shooting on a hatred of Christians, in spite of the fact that his manifesto pretty clearly placed his hatred at other races, not the nations' dominant religion.  They seem to be willing to point their fingers in all kinds of crazy directions, but they're unwilling to admit racism is a thing.

I'll be the first to admit, I've seen people who claim to be advocates for black people that have kinda jumped the shark.  But I've also seen real racial issues in the country, too.  I do have to admit, the more hyperbolic racial advocates aren't helping their cause; instead, they're just crying wolf and convincing people that nothing they have to say is worth listening to (which, in turn, means they're also going to be ignored when real racial issues come up).  

You could say the two groups are mirror images of each other:  One refuses to acknowledge that race isn't an issue at all anymore while the other forcibly injects race into every issue.  In the end, I think we need to find a way to meet somewhere in a more reasonable, middle ground.

And with this coming up on the heels of the black teenager being tackled by the white cop and the Baltimore riots and a host of other cases involving police killing black people for, at best, questionable reasons, I can see some serious anger from black communities.  And I think it's justified to have that anger.  The only question is, what is going to be done about it?  Are the police going to keep killing black men for no good reason, while black communities continue to burn themselves down in protest?  Or are we going to take a realistic look at race issues in America and attempt to deal with them in a realistic manner?

No there is no "middle ground", there are however people both on the left and right ignoring the elephant in the room, the same way Jews and Muslims in Palestine and Israel use race as a doge to avoid religion being the cause.

Roof got his bigoted sense of morality from the KKK and to claim that is not a religious organization is bullshit. On the other side, liberal blacks don't want to accept that slavery existed precisely because white European Christians forced their religion on blacks. 

Now again, religion is the cause of racism, unless this is accepted, you will not manage differences to a more civil degree. I had a Hindu call me a bigot an racist, despite pointing out to them that there are atheists born in India, who were raised in Hinduism, who left the religion. This is no different to me than Ayaan Hirsi Ali being a former Muslim herself telling liberal Muslims that BOTH Sunnis and Shiites are using the same books. 

It is really important for liberals to understand that the same books they use to justify pluralism, and empathy, are the exact same books others use to justify bigotry and violence. 

Taking away religion as an excuse isn't a call to end it. It is a call to accept it and face it so that we can take that distraction out of the picture and reduce horrible events like this.

(June 27, 2015 at 2:14 am)Chas Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Oh fuck off, you act like getting a gun is like putting man on the moon. Yea you do have to go through those things and yes, guns are expensive. Marriages are easy to get into too, and quite expensive and without good planning can end up quite nasty.

Nope sorry, if what you say about cost and background checks(fyi are not universal) were solving the problem, we would not have the amount of gun death. You don't believe me that guns are plentiful? Go into any Pawn shop that sells them, count the number of guns in that one shop. Then go to another, count those, repeat repeat repeat, . Then go to a hunting or sporting shop that sells them, count those too.


Yes they are far too easy to get and they are pumped out like any other massively produced product.

Your emotional exaggerations and false comparisons are tedious.

Fuck you. Only America has the volume of gun death out of all the westernized 1rst world countries. Fuckheads like you protect those stats. Sane people would like to reduce gun death. You like being the #1 in gun death, I don't.

Your shitty selfish attitude is on Par with Muslims willing to kill you for criticizing the Koran. This is the selfish mentality of worshiping objects. Humans have rights, objects do not.

Now again, liberals own guns too. No one wants a fascist state. GROW THE FUCK UP.

The status quo in gun deaths is unacceptable. I could give a fuck less about your worship of guns. No one is telling you to go away and no one is seeking to ban all guns. What we are sick of is the "do nothing" bullshit that really is nothing more than corporate lobbying to maintain a market.

(June 25, 2015 at 9:14 am)Brian37 Wrote: Just this morning one of the members of that church said "God is in control", really? Look lady, what happened sucked and nobody likes losing friends and loved ones for any reason, especially not like that. But "in control"? WHAT THE FUCK? Was he taking a smoke break when Roof pulled out his gun and murdered 9 people? God " Sorry folks, I am on my smoke break, I'll get back to you after the fact".

Would anyone value a doctor who acted like that? You are having a heart attack, you are in the ER and the doctor says, "Yea I could and do have the power to save you, but I am having lunch right now".

Sorry believers, the logic simply does not work.

Was that a Freudian slip that you did not put a comma between "sorry believers?"

Imagine what the world would be like if god were not in control. Those 9 people might still be alive, along with so many others.

I guess we know what Pat Robertson would have to say about this. Nine potential Hitlers hiding out in god's house, but he got them.

(June 27, 2015 at 2:07 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 9:14 am)Brian37 Wrote: Just this morning one of the members of that church said "God is in control", really? Look lady, what happened sucked and nobody likes losing friends and loved ones for any reason, especially not like that. But "in control"? WHAT THE FUCK? Was he taking a smoke break when Roof pulled out his gun and murdered 9 people? God " Sorry folks, I am on my smoke break, I'll get back to you after the fact".

Would anyone value a doctor who acted like that? You are having a heart attack, you are in the ER and the doctor says, "Yea I could and do have the power to save you, but I am having lunch right now".

Sorry believers, the logic simply does not work.

Was that a Freudian slip that you did not put a comma between "sorry believers?"

Imagine what the world would be like if god were not in control. Those 9 people might still be alive, along with so many others.

I guess we know what Pat Robertson would have to say about this. Nine potential Hitlers hiding out in god's house, but he got them.

Religious minorities are part of the problem too. I really recommend anyone who has already read "The God Delusion" to also read a very underestimated book "The New Atheism" by Victor Stenger, he was no fan of the well intended "splitting the baby" of even religious scientists saying "they are different but equal ways of viewing the world". He, in a later chapter uses multiple religious including those of Asia and the Orient to show that everyone points to the good in their religions, to point out that people need to consider that it is our species doing that, and not the books or religions. Much like pro sports superstitions like lucky bats or lucky socks. The player is the one doing the work, the superstition is a  mere crutch.