(July 1, 2015 at 7:33 am)Tonus Wrote: Cherry picking is a pretty common form of bias that we use in many different ways in our day-to-day life.  So it's natural that people will use it even when it's pointed out to them, and have trouble recognizing that they're doing it even then.  The brain has a whole raft of ways that it keeps us believing a certain narrative about our lives, and it takes quite a bit of effort to punch through it.  Without the ability to stubbornly hang on to that narrative, we'd have very real problems functioning in human society, especially the current one where the amount of leisure time and choices at our disposal are far greater than in centuries past.

I think that anyone who was raised religious and really followed it devoutly and is now an atheist can recognize just how difficult it is to step back and analyze certain beliefs without burying their analysis under an avalanche of biases and fallacies designed to keep them on track.  I would even say that for most of us, the decision to let go of god was made before we came up with most of the reasons for it.

Indeed...it took me till just a few weeks ago to finally turn it off, and I'm turning 28 this year. That shit works HARD to defend itself almost in the same way an addiction or mental illness does.

(July 1, 2015 at 8:22 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: That shit works HARD to defend itself almost in the same way an addiction or mental illness does.

Maybe it is a mental illness...

(July 1, 2015 at 9:15 am)Napoléon Wrote: Maybe it is a mental illness...

I tend to draw a distinction between mental illness and indoctrinated false beliefs, though I suppose phantasms and delusions could certainly take classic religious forms amongst those who struggle with certain mental disorders.

I had just finished a fantastic reply in which I referenced some verses from Paul's letters which support the fact that Christians are not under the old testament law because Jesus had fulfilled the requirements of the law, which we are unable to fulfill, and we are justified through our faith in him.  He stated that no one will be justified by following the law.  I then hit the wrong key and deleted it all.  I'm not going to go through the work again, but anyone can find the evidence from a google search under "not under old testament law."

(July 3, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Lek Wrote: I had just finished a fantastic reply in which I referenced some verses from Paul's letters which support the fact that Christians are not under the old testament law because Jesus had fulfilled the requirements of the law, which we are unable to fulfill, and we are justified through our faith in him.  He stated that no one will be justified by following the law.  I then hit the wrong key and deleted it all.  I'm not going to go through the work again, but anyone can find the evidence from a google search under "not under old testament law."

Sorry, but I'd much prefer a rewrite of your post to a google search. 

But I do have some questions about Jesus fulfilling the OT law we are unable to fulfill.  The OT laws are meticulously detailed, but certainly could be followed.  Those that Jesus proposes in the Sermon on the Mount could not really be fulfilled by anyone as they involves having no bad thoughts.  And as Jesus appears just a touch snappish from time to time, and he questions god on Gethsemane it doesn't appear that Jesus manages it himself.

In any case, it's the easiest laws to fulfill that seem to be the one's Christians have decided not to follow: not eating cheese burgers, pork; or shell fish; or not lighting fires on Saturday;  or sacrificing doves to stay ritually clean; or circumcision; or not touching the ark of the covenant.  Heck, even I can avoid touching the ark.

(July 1, 2015 at 10:39 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 9:15 am)Napoléon Wrote: Maybe it is a mental illness...

I tend to draw a distinction between mental illness and indoctrinated false beliefs, though I suppose phantasms and delusions could certainly take classic religious forms amongst those who struggle with certain mental disorders.

I'd agree with you there.  Religious believe is taught belief.  Phantasms are the product of brain malfunctions.  How it manifests that malfunction is cultural.

(July 3, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Lek Wrote: I had just finished a fantastic reply in which I referenced some verses from Paul's letters which support the fact that Christians are not under the old testament law because Jesus had fulfilled the requirements of the law, which we are unable to fulfill, and we are justified through our faith in him.  He stated that no one will be justified by following the law.  I then hit the wrong key and deleted it all.  I'm not going to go through the work again, but anyone can find the evidence from a google search under "not under old testament law."

This is the first time I've heard Christians proclaiming non-adherence to OT law because they're lazy. Fucking brilliant.

(July 3, 2015 at 11:56 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Sorry, but I'd much prefer a rewrite of your post to a google search. 

But I do have some questions about Jesus fulfilling the OT law we are unable to fulfill.  The OT laws are meticulously detailed, but certainly could be followed.  Those that Jesus proposes in the Sermon on the Mount could not really be fulfilled by anyone as they involves having no bad thoughts.  And as Jesus appears just a touch snappish from time to time, and he questions god on Gethsemane it doesn't appear that Jesus manages it himself.

In any case, it's the easiest laws to fulfill that seem to be the one's Christians have decided not to follow: not eating cheese burgers, pork; or shell fish; or not lighting fires on Saturday;  or sacrificing doves to stay ritually clean; or circumcision; or not touching the ark of the covenant.  Heck, even I can avoid touching the ark.

Have you ever stolen anything?  Lied about someone?  Coveted something that somebody else owned?  If you've done any of things once, you've broken the old testament law.  I'd also hate having to go out and get animals, slaughter them, and pour their blood over the ark of the covenant, which we don't even have anymore by the way.

(July 4, 2015 at 11:54 am)Lek Wrote:

(July 3, 2015 at 11:56 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Sorry, but I'd much prefer a rewrite of your post to a google search. 

But I do have some questions about Jesus fulfilling the OT law we are unable to fulfill.  The OT laws are meticulously detailed, but certainly could be followed.  Those that Jesus proposes in the Sermon on the Mount could not really be fulfilled by anyone as they involves having no bad thoughts.  And as Jesus appears just a touch snappish from time to time, and he questions god on Gethsemane it doesn't appear that Jesus manages it himself.

In any case, it's the easiest laws to fulfill that seem to be the one's Christians have decided not to follow: not eating cheese burgers, pork; or shell fish; or not lighting fires on Saturday;  or sacrificing doves to stay ritually clean; or circumcision; or not touching the ark of the covenant.  Heck, even I can avoid touching the ark.

Have you ever stolen anything?  Lied about someone?  Coveted something that somebody else owned?  If you've done any of things once, you've broken the old testament law.  I'd also hate having to go out and get animals, slaughter them, and pour their blood over the ark of the covenant, which we don't even have anymore by the way.

Lek, your referring to the jesus sacrifice fulfilling the sacrificial law of the old testament, so basically he covered the atonement for our sins. Does that mean that Christians do not have to follow these laws or do they just have no accountability when they break them?

(July 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(July 4, 2015 at 11:54 am)Lek Wrote: Have you ever stolen anything?  Lied about someone?  Coveted something that somebody else owned?  If you've done any of things once, you've broken the old testament law.  I'd also hate having to go out and get animals, slaughter them, and pour their blood over the ark of the covenant, which we don't even have anymore by the way.

Lek, your referring to the jesus sacrifice fulfilling the sacrificial law of the old testament, so basically he covered the atonement for our sins. Does that mean that Christians do not have to follow these laws or do they just have no accountability when they break them?

We are required to follow the moral requirements of the law as summed up in the two great commandments.

Matthew 22:37-40New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”