(July 13, 2015 at 4:02 am)Spooky Wrote: Regardless of the opinion of any other human, I don't live for nothing. Until your life has been threatened as many times as mine has, and you've had the sort of reflection that goes along with it, you're not even remotely qualified to comment on what I live for.

What a silly thing to say. I refer you to my previous replies about what I meant by living for nothing.

(July 12, 2015 at 11:03 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(July 12, 2015 at 10:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'd be interested to know how people's answers would change in the following scenario:

Imagine religion still exists, but it somehow does no harm anymore, in any real way. Obviously it still involves some irrational thinking to believe in it, but it's not been forced on anyone anymore (especially children) and any other negative factor you can think of has been neutralised. It's a secular masterpiece.

Would you still consider yourself "against" religion (further to it being irrational) and if so, to what degree?

Personally I'd be very happy, in fact ecstatic, with this scenario and I wouldn't be against it at all. I'd still encourage more rational thought of course, and keep a beady eye on things.

I just realised this may well be a loaded/obvious question! Oh well, discussion welcome

I think your story is self-contradictory.  If it is irrational, it encourages irrationality.  That is going to mean it is harmful.  I really want you to read William Kingdon Clifford's essay "The Will to Believe":

http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm

I will be very happy to discuss it with you.  If you want a new thread on it, please either create it, or ask me via PM to do so.

Yeah, you're probably right. I realised this may be a stupid question after I wrote it but left it anyway. Thanks for the recommendations, I'll take a look when I'm up to it!

Anti-theist seems a bit harsh, I do not actively attack religion or undermine its existence in any way. But I despise what it does. It creates stigma that I am an atheist, It symbolizes racism, hatred and all that is wrong with humanity. It hates me because I am an atheist. It does not base its opinion on such things as my qualities, my actions or my character or even my accomplishments, It hates me simply because I do not believe in their doctrine. It made me afraid to talk to my family about religious matters and it made me follow religion and it disgusting ways simply to create an illusion of loyalty so that i can continue to maintain a normal relationship with my nuclear family. And for wider society, its harmful effects are even greater, as I shall illustrate. It continues to enslave women and plays intellectual games with children's heads. It makes good reasonable people do horrible things like support stoning, support sodomy laws and support circumcision for non medical reasons.

It impede progress. It has stopped stem cell research is many countries because of its mundane unscientific beliefs. It prevents people from criticizing its past because religion enjoys a special status in western society. Even in practical terms: People pray, people believe in superstitious nonsense and practice nonsense rituals that impede them from achieving better. It is intellectual slavery and theft

Religion dresses it all up with nice words and ceremonies, where priests preach the lies of eternal health and salvation. Religion sells an invisible product and people are gullible enough to buy it. Religion always commands full obedience. It takes no criticism but has answers for everything.

Religion fuels hatred. Why do the Shias hate the Sunnis? Just why? Religion and history are to blame. Religion makes people hate the other for the wrong reasons, for such reasons as God's word, caste, race, sexuality and behavior, It makes people blame the wrong things and not themselves. Have you ever heard of a religion that admits its own mistakes and failures? Have you ever seen a major religion change its ways of beliefs after being proven wrong?

And worse of all, can you imagine what would have happened if religion did not change at all? Religion used to be a ferocious tiger that ate up families, lives, killed many and enforced its bullshit rules where it persecutes, mutilated and killed with impunity. Religion has finally become a declawed kitten thanks to years of liberalism and secularism. Its old ways cannot and will not wok in the West any more. Its racist and hateful ways are shunned, so it has to stay in a corner and hope people fall for its lies. It cannot force people who are out of its imminent control any more. It has to dress up its doctrine with flowers, honey and bells to make it attractive. It still enjoys privilege. Criticism of religion is not tolerated in many societies, regardless of the validity of your arguments or allegations. In countries like Saudi Arabia, it imposes capital punishment for such mundane things as sodomy, sex before marriage, alcohol use, practicing "magic", disobeying husband's commands or speaking ill of the government. Religion motivates people to kill others, segregate societies and imposes a class based society. In such countries as Oman, Qatar, Myanmar and Saudi Arabia such things are practiced to this very day.

Sorry for my long rambling, but it is true religion is useless and serves no purpose. I do not know how to stop its ways or curtail its growth in a moral and humane way. But it must be done. Atheists must start talking to others about faith. Atheists must get their word out, support such intellectuals as Dawkins and the late Hitchens.

Religion has at times offered man hope, offered him comfort when the answers were difficult. It has made him work for a day he will meet his dead wife in this imaginary place called heaven. Religion builds community and keeps people together. It does have a charitable side. It makes sure the unintelligent follow rules. But these are no reasons to keep religion alive. Its harm far outweighs any good it can bring. Intellectual slavery is not to be taken lightly. It undermines the very nature of human curiosity, intellect and determination. We must try to end it in our life time.

(July 12, 2015 at 10:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'd be interested to know how people's answers would change in the following scenario:

Imagine religion still exists, but it somehow does no harm anymore, in any real way. Obviously it still involves some irrational thinking to believe in it, but it's not been forced on anyone anymore (especially children) and any other negative factor you can think of has been neutralised. It's a secular masterpiece.

Would you still consider yourself "against" religion (further to it being irrational) and if so, to what degree?

Personally I'd be very happy, in fact ecstatic, with this scenario and I wouldn't be against it at all. I'd still encourage more rational thought of course, and keep a beady eye on things.

I just realised this may well be a loaded/obvious question! Oh well, discussion welcome

I'd be much less concerned about religion if that could be achieved, however, one of my concerns about religion is that this particular situation -doesn't- seem to be achievable by or through a religion.  It seems that it's either not in the nature of religious thought, or not in the nature of religious people. No current religion could fit this bill, or be modified to fit this bill and yet remain "x",for example. I'd still be worried about irrational thought, but not so much in and of itself. Elevating irrational thought to the status of authority is the issue, for me, not having a wild imagination.

(July 13, 2015 at 3:07 am)excitedpenguin Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 3:03 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: Clearly not an artist or musician here.

I don't know what you mean by that.

Being irrational at certain points of the creative process is very useful in both endeavors.

(July 13, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 3:07 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: I don't know what you mean by that.

Being irrational at certain points of the creative process is very useful in both endeavors.

No, it isn't. I actually know a bit about 'the creative process'. It is certainly not irrational. This is just an urban myth, or, otherwise, you just don't get the meaning of the word 'irrational'. One couldn't possibly create anything, least of all art, by being irrational.

(July 13, 2015 at 1:47 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Being irrational at certain points of the creative process is very useful in both endeavors.

No, it isn't. I actually know a bit about 'the creative process'. It is certainly not irrational. This is just an urban myth, or, otherwise, you just don't get the meaning of the word 'irrational'.

Apparently you missed the parts where I said "at points". Of course rationality is needed for me to write a listenable song or coherent book. However, the irrational informs art insofar as the art is invested with emotion. I could put together a song according to a rational formula, but absent the irrational information of emotion, it's usually craptastic.

Quote:One couldn't possibly create anything, least of all art, by being irrational.

My personal experiences writing songs, writing one book (and working on my second), writing poetry, and having gigged as a guitarist leads me to an entirely different conclusion .... but I know better than to seek common ground, so I won't bother.

(July 13, 2015 at 2:46 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 1:47 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: No, it isn't. I actually know a bit about 'the creative process'. It is certainly not irrational. This is just an urban myth, or, otherwise, you just don't get the meaning of the word 'irrational'.

Apparently you missed the parts where I said "at points". Of course rationality is needed for me to write a listenable song or coherent book. However, the irrational informs art insofar as the art is invested with emotion. I could put together a song according to a rational formula, but absent the irrational information of emotion, it's usually craptastic.

Quote:One couldn't possibly create anything, least of all art, by being irrational.

My personal experiences writing songs, writing one book (and working on my second), writing poetry, and having gigged as a guitarist leads me to an entirely different conclusion .... but I know better than to seek common ground, so I won't bother.

You are being obtuse. If you focus on emotion in creating art it doesn't make it irrational to do so in the least. In fact, it makes it quite rational precisely because it informs and betters your artistic process.

(July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am)excitedpenguin Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 2:27 am)Spooky Wrote: Anti-Theist/ Militant atheist.

"God" needs to die.

How do you propose we kill him?

Draw him into the body of a man and then crucify His Ass.

(July 13, 2015 at 3:47 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: How do you propose we kill him?

Draw him into the body of a man and then crucify His Ass.

No, that would make him haunt you for millenia to come.
Better call the Winchesters to put this monster to sleep for good.